In honor of Rosie's ChannelC I

"We always thank God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, when we pray for you, because we have heard about your faith in Christ Jesus and your love for all the saints, springing from the hope that is stored up for you in heaven and that you already heard about in the word of truth, the good news that has come to you."
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In honor of Rosie's ChannelC I

Post by angelaglass » Thu Sep 22, 2016 2:58 am

ChannelC archive


The word we translate as Jew was first used in the scriptures to refer to the army of Judah in war against Israel, as I understand it, from 2 Kings 16.

The kingdom was split into two, which then was called the "house of Judah" and the "house of Israel" or the southern and northern kingdoms, Judah and Israel.

Before reading straight through (my first time, eyeopening) I'd never realized a distinction, nor would ever have been able to comprehend it. But the story is there, the divorce of Israel the northern kingdom, keeping Judah and showing mercy a while longer (Hosea). Then the prophecies of restoration, which are yet to come, which maintain those distinctions in Jeremiah, and Zechariah. Further scriptural research sent me back to the tribes which made up the kingdoms, and started making the story unfold with incredible detail. The house of Joseph, with the birthright passed down to Ephraim and Manasseh, as opposed to the throne of David of Judah. There were people who were around from the ten-tribe kingdom in Christ's day, but there weren't ten tribes still around.

So my comment above was clarifying because one of the points that seemed to be a stumbling block for my dad was his disbelief that the Jews could fulfill the prophecies. But I couldn't get him to understand, that the Jews are, loosely speaking, only 20% of the whole of Israel. And they are one of the two houses or two kingdoms which comprised the United Kingdom of Israel (under Saul, David and Solomon). See also Ezekiel 37:15... The Jews aren't the fulfillment of the prophecies, they could only ever be "half" of the fulfillment, Israel is required.

I can keep going for hours, I have so much to ask and discuss, but I tend to overwhelm people like a child who won't stop asking "why" after each response.

So yes, I believe that the 144k are the natural born descendants of Israel, and that they are from the 12 tribes, which includes the Jews of the kingdom of Judah of the tribes of Judah and Benjamin. I don't know why I called out that distinction, though I guess now I'm glad I did, because it was of interest.



Do you know of any association of people who honestly did their best to study the scriptures in the way that Russell set out, originally, to do? I should put that in present tense.

With love, I say that I have no desire to go back and learn what Russell believed. I believe something he believed were truth, but as we're all imperfect I do not believe we can be in ourself the body of the truth because it requires the members of the body to come together to the head, and that head is truth, not us.

RR, I really appreciate your continued responses. I hope that in no one do I appear obstinate. I tend to think forward, while making use of whatever I can of the past. For instance, I have enjoyed bits of E.W. Bullinger, which I found after having stumbled into after having read an article by Fredrik Homer Robison which at the time I had no idea had been associated with the Watchtower in any way. It was also by the aid of the 1880's Watchtower articles written mainly by Russell that I was able to find freedom, and then was able to come to read Franz' Crisis and later In Search of Christian Freedom, at that point as validation for what I'd come to believe myself.

I think however, forward thinking, of Daniel's writings and his experience. His studied the writings to learn that it must be the time for this all to come to an end, and no sooner than he'd prayed did an answer come!

I'd like to be Daniel, sure! Who wouldn't? But that's not my point here. I am more intrigued by the statement which is a translation of trouble for me—Daniel 12:4. The Interlinear I have doesn't include the clause "many will go back and forth" or "Many will go here and there" to increase knowledge. It does indicate the Hebrew words for many being taught and knowledge increasing, which I feel is in context of the unsealing of the words of Daniel.

Though I was taught that a child, even of God, cannot understand the Word of God without the help of man, it seems that the scriptures say otherwise—do not lean upon your own understanding, but it points us to God so that in all our ways we take notice of him.

Thanks — I'm very much enjoying the conversation. It's precisely what I've been praying for!

I guess maybe I would say that I'm not looking for a group to join, but many individuals from which I can learn, in the spirit of "many will rove about" if that's indeed what Daniel 12:4 intended.

A favorite song of mine has always been "Lord, I was born a ramblin' (wo)man..." :)

=== Voting ===

I'm waiting for my white pebble—theocracy, rather than democracy. (Daniel 5:12,14, 12:3,4,9-13)

"He who has the sharp two-edged sword says these things: "I know your works and where you dwell, where Satan's throne is. You hold firmly to my name, and didn't deny my faith—He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the assemblies. To him who overcomes, to him I will give of the hidden manna, and I will give him a white stone, and on the stone a new name written, which no one knows but he who receives it." — Revelation 2:12...17, cf. Acts 26:10

Democracy me think of voting for the beast, Revelation 13:18:

"In this situation wisdom [1] is needed. Let the person who has insight [2] figure out [3] [the meaning of] the number of the beast, because it is a human number. The beast's number is 666."

- Greek sophia (or wisdom, insight, the root of sophisticated philosophy; the Greeks gave us democracy)
- understanding: mental capacity to exercise reflective thinking, intellect, receiving God's thoughts, through faith (Ro 12:2,3)
- "let him count": "indeed chiefly in the middle in the Greek writings to give one's vote by casting a pebble into the urn; to decide by voting"


n the thread that led me offsite and into the last two weeks of research brought me back here and to Gérard.

Somerset's Harvard Theological Review article only seemed to confirm my understanding as the name that has become YHWH is not our Father's and is instead both blasphemous and used in ancient magick associated with ancient Babylon mystery religions, Gnosticism and Freemasonry.

I ended up with a smattering of new pages on my work-in-progress website as well as being engaged in reading several books, a list to follow (your comments and critique appreciated, remembering that I'm perhaps softer skinned than others!) :)

As for the other thread, you followed up saying that you agree with me that JWs overuse YHWH—I don't believe that the overuse it, I believe it's a pagan name which while the innocent as dove's believe it to be our Father's name, they are not cautious as serpents—proclaiming it to the whole world as THE name. I understand your comment about not looking for an invented word in a Hebrew Lexicon, however, I care about what things mean—before I'd decide to name my child a name I created myself, I'd certainly do the research to find out what connotations and denotations it has. Strong's #3050 is clear, and while invoking the name YHWH, they treat it in the same manner as original language name. Thus, Yah becomes Jah, and it then becomes confusing—just how do you go from "hawah" to "hovah", if not by mischief? The intent is a somber joke—yes, he promised calamity and ruin on judgment day.

It's the simpler points that hit home with me, the poetry of the original name, the breathing vowel sounds. The pronunciation of theophoric Hebrew proper names passed down generation-to-generation (of four variations), the patronymic name Yehudah YHWDH, and the family name Yehoshua.

When I pray at night, now, I practicing breathing those Hebrew vowels as his name. At least I know that it's far closer than "YHWH", and is based on the witness of countless Hebrews both in the bible and those today who bear the name of the Father in their own. (I spoke to the Exalted Name guy who's publishing a new bible version—he's changing all the names to use "yeh", as in Eliyah > Elijah > Eliyeh. I had the gall to ask him how people would feel about his changing the spelling of their names—I hope he will respond, I really do wonder his thinking. His quote below.)

Furthermore, wherever the Hebrew 3050 is used, which is the abbreviated form of His name, it will customarily be found in use with another Hebrew word, thereby forming a name or an expression. The abbreviated presentation of His name is YEH, and we find that name hidden throughout Scripture in connective names like: Joel, Elijah, Judah and Benjamin, and it is hidden in the New Covenant as well in names, and even in words like, Halleluyeh… Those corrections are also made within The Exalted Name Bible™, which eliminates another few thousand misinterpretations. — Exalted Bible, on replacing Strong's #3050 with "Yeh"

- YHWH: The Horned Hunter on a Lost Gnostic Gem
- Yehowah יְהוָה and Theophoric Names
- Proofs of the Interpolation of the Vowel-Letters in the Text of the Hebrew Bible and Grounds Thence Derived for a Revision of its Authorized English Version (1857) by Charles William Wall, D.D.
- The Name of God YeHoWaH. Its Story (2002) by Gérard Gertoux
- In Fame Only: A Historical Record of the Divine Name, by Gérard Gertoux
- Un Nome eccellente, by Gérard Gertoux
- The Tower of Siloam (2003) by George Wesley Buchanan, published in The Expository Times, Vol. 115 No. 2 (November 2003): 37-45
- ‘Some Unfinished Business with the Dead Sea Scrolls’, Revue de Qumrân (1988, 13:49-52) (Mémorial Jean Carmignac (ed.), F. Garcia Martinez et E. Peuch (Paris, 1988), pp. 411–20. —The paper is expensive—200 Euros! Anyone got a copy???
- YHWH in An Encyclopaedia of Freemasonry and its Kindred Sciences: Comprising the Whole Range of Arts, Sciences and Literature as Connected with the Institution (1874) by Albert Gallatin Mackey, pg 370-381
- From Jewish Magic to Gnosticism (2005) by Attilio Mastrocinque
- The Gnostics and their Remains: Ancient and Mediaeval (1887) by C.W. King, pg. 313-319
- The “Horned Hunter” on a Lost Gnostic Gem by Roy Kotansky and Jeffrey Spier (1995), published in the Harvard Theological Review, Volume 88, Issue 03, July 1995 pp 315-337
- Gnosticism and Christianity in Roman and Coptic Egypt (Studies in Antiquity & Christianity)
(2004) by Birger A. Pearson


Flatlander, I feel as though by reading this thread I might offer insight. It seems as though rather than seeking to understand what Ros means in her words, you make assumptions about what she means, filling in the blanks as it were.

She was also being modest and didn't propose that her success in certain x-JW endeavors were "blessed" as it were, which may have led to some confusion.

I have found that the days that I progress in light—coming to understanding deeper truths, more and more—are those that I spend focused on the scriptures, as opposed to those scouring resources of commentaries and research. I find that relying more on faith that the holy spirit will be sent as our helper to guide us into truth means that when I stay focused on it as my teacher rather than man, I find what I need in that same "is it a coincidence?" kind of way Ros speaks of.

I write and write, compiling notes on my website which is a mess with eventual intent to share. It helps me figure out where I am in understanding—it means I can outline my own faith with my scriptural references.

I recently purchased Apostle on the Edge, a workbook for use in inductive study of the letters of Paul. I had finally come to the realization of the Great Sacred Secret, and thus divided the scriptures, with the intent to focus on those specifically address to the members of "Christ, the body". Perhaps you'd enjoy it too? It was nice to use a question and answer style guide which allowed me to consider my own beliefs and to interpret the scriptures as written rather than to read about someone else's beliefs and to consider them for use as my own. I'm over that after my days under the Watchful all seeing eye of the Tower. :)

I love Paul's books. I love E.W. Bullinger's commentary on the Great Sacred Secret, and the structure and intent and meaning behind the order of those books.

Corinthians felt like where I was— my first baby steps out of the divisions. Check out a version of the scriptures which allows you to see past your old thoughts—I chose The Message (read it via YouVersion, though I know own a copy, and a parallel version with NIV). The NLT is also useful in that same manner. You may miss nuances, but as a student as you are, you'll know and can choose other versions with different intents to keep certain of the Word. 1 Corinthians speaks to a congregation he adores, but while he came to them expecting to teach them about mystery of God, as members of the body of Christ, he realized that they were still babes—caught up in divisions of flesh—not recognizing that they should have by then been spiritual people, if they had followed the spirit over men. (1 Cor 1, 2, 3) Besides those scriptures of warning for us, the rest is mundane—they were babes and his letter describes simply the basics of our faith and correction of behavior. Does it whet your appetite though? It did mine. Paul as the prophet, I as the student, with God to help making me grow. It was fascinating! I'm almost done with my Apostle on the Edge workbook, and have my own understanding of Paul's letters and which are written about what we believe, which are correction, which are cheering us on. I think that the WT should be coming to a close right about now with their own version of this study, in the form of the book "Bearing Witness", but how different the outcome of those two paths are!

Flat, I am building my faith—if you are in the same position as I am, I would love to talk offline studying with you. Not as a teacher kind of thing, but as peers. Who knew I'd ever not want to be a babe! :)



Hello darling! :) Thanks for your reply! I hadn't intended to exclude anyone, and as I most often don't post things that engage you, as you mention, I'm most honored that you reach out when I do! So honestly pleased!

Here's my story—on April 16th I registered "". It was after prayerful consideration of how it was that I would share information with others, specifically others like I who have long sought YHWH.

Last night I realized that while I pray for spiritual guidance and wisdom, the holy spirit to guide me into the truth, that I had something "real" to pray for too. What should be the new domain name?

This morning, laying in bed, I read Ros/Flat's thread on prayer/coincidences on my iPad and inadvertently logged out of the forum. This forced me out of bed, and after a series of distractions about an hour later I'm responding to Flat's post. I invited him at the close to consider building his faith with me as I build my own—I used the word cohort, then saw that sometimes it's considered derogatory, and I believe I edited it out and ended with a quip about being "a babe".

I closed the tab and it was realized—I had just invited Flat to join me in spiritual congregation.

Today, six months later, less one week, I registered I immediately went to see if it was available, stopped to double check the meaning of the words, and to ensure the intent matched meaning.

I want to move away from the religious systems of man, and into recognition and discern of the body, the spiritual body.

Ashenden, I whole heartedly agree with your sentiments. I believe that if the correct pronunciation were important than we'd be given it—but that doesn't keep me from wanting to refrain from using what obviously isn't. I dated a German Greek once, also a JW. He spoke English, but I had to send him a book—"English as a second %*$#ing Language". He used curse word's without meaning what he said. But that wouldn't stop my mother from completely rejecting him from his innocent intent. Obviously our Father is far more forgiving that my fleshly mother—and my momma is totally cool! But once Samy knew that those were bad words, he immediately began removing them from his vocabulary so as not to offend.

I believe that in the last days the light will get brighter and brighter as the day draws near, and that their will be those who gain insight and whose faces will shine. I believe that Joel was fulfilled at the end of the Jewish system, and that it will be fulfilled again at the end of the Christian system.

Thus, personally I seek out truth and understanding, knowledge, insight and spiritual wisdom and to be taught by the holy spirit. What I learn I employ. I believe that I have submitted myself to a process of being refined, cleansed and purified, though trials have stumbled me in the past—I even stopped praying for years, after being stumbled by the WT of whom I believed their judgment represented YHWH's judgment upon me. That's the failure of faith leaving or being cast out of the WT—believing that the represent our Father.

I believe scriptures like Zechariah 13 apply today—

“On that day a fountain will be opened to the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem, to cleanse them from sin and impurity. “On that day, I will banish the names of the idols from the land, and they will be remembered no more,” declares the Lord Almighty. “I will remove both the prophets and the spirit of impurity from the land." ... This third I will bring into the fire; I will refine them like silver and test them like gold. They will call on my name and I will answer them; I will say, ‘They are my people,’ and they will say, ‘The Lord is our God.’”

Parallels 1 Peter 1, to the diaspora:

Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, and into an inheritance that can never perish, spoil or fade—kept in heaven for you, whothrough faith are shielded by God’s power until the coming of the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time. In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while you may have had to suffer grief in all kinds of trials. These have come so that your faith—of greater worth than gold, which perishes even though refined by fire—may be proved genuine and may result in praise, glory and honor when Jesus Christ is revealed. Though you have not seen him, you love him; and even though you do not see him now, you believe in him and are filled with an inexpressible and glorious joy, 9for you are receiving the goal of your faith, the salvation of your souls.

I believe Daniel 12:10 is going on right now, at the very least in my life alone:

Many will be purified, cleansed, and refined by these trials. But the wicked will continue in their wickedness, and none of them will understand. Only those who are wise will know what it means.

I am heeding the words of the Messias at Revelation 3:18

I counsel you to buy from me gold [faith, cf. 1 Peter 1, above] refined in the fire, so you can become rich; and white clothes to wear, so you can cover your shameful nakedness; and salve to put on your eyes, so you can see.

I pray as David:

Hear, O Lord, my righteous plea; listen to my cry.
Give ear to my prayer—it does not rise from deceitful lips.
May my vindication come from you; may your eyes see what is right.
Though you probe my heart and examine me at night,
though you test me, you will find nothing;
I have resolved that my mouth will not sin.

The earth was given the rainbow as a creation to remind us that he will never again destroy us by flood—if you believe the Word—But on the judgment day, fire will reveal what kind of work each builder has done. The fire will show if a person's work has any value.

We know that the testing of faith develops perseverance.

2 Peter pretty much wraps it up—brings me back to the thoughts of Daniel's revelation of last days:

But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything in it will be laid bare.

Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming.b That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat. But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, the home of righteousness. So then, dear friends, since you are looking forward to this, make every effort to be found spotless, blameless and at peace with him.

I believe there is a spiritual fire that's been set, and I believe that the same manner that the flood occurred the fire will also occur. I believe the keys of the Kingdom lay in the Word given to us, and I find hidden treasure through all the keywords which are like golden threads through the scriptures.

I'm working on "getting out of her" in all the ways—in every way I learn about along the way—even in the simplest ways, for instance trying to remove "wish" from my expressions. Babylon the Great, whore and the mother of whores, (King James, Cambridge; American King James Version) was described as being "full of names of blasphemy". I believe her to be the mother of the Christian religious system (Bible, testament, God, Lord, Holy, Amen, Glory, Jesus, Christ, Church, Cross—all used in worship of the God of the Sun, as opposed that who Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob worshipped)

Those who are wise will shine like the brightness of the heavens, and those who lead many to righteousness, like the stars for ever and ever. — Who is wise? He will realize these things. Who is discerning? He will understand them. The ways of our Father are right; the righteous walk in them, but the rebellious stumble in them.

As for me, personally, and my household of one, I will serve YHWH, and heed his warning. I share my faith with others. It is interesting to come to some of the same conclusions as what I was taught as a JW, but I come to them now through my own faith that I've worked out towards salvation. I think right now of the origin of birthday cakes.

I offer this with a full heart of love and expression of joy—hope that it is well received, as you are my friends and brothers!



I'm not sure what you mean by "who are you?"

“Go west and look in the land of Cyprus;
go east and search through the land of Kedar.
Has anyone ever heard of anything
as strange as this?

Has any nation ever traded its gods for new ones,
even though they are not gods at all?
Yet my people have exchanged My esteem
for worthless idols!

The heavens are shocked at such a thing
and shrink back in horror and dismay,”
says YHWH.

“For my people have done two evil things:
They have abandoned me—
the fountain of living water.
And they have dug for themselves cracked cisterns
that can hold no water at all!

Bible—not a word used in the scriptures. Came from the Greek's name of the Phoenician city Gabel famous for it's export of papyrus. Gabel is from GB'L meaning "well or origin" of "El" (El being the most high of the cities pantheon). The Greek's called the city Byblos, for their worship of Byblis (a.k.a. Byble), and as papyrus was used to scribe, we come to the name eventually of "Bible".

from Bible (n.) early 14c., from Anglo-Latin biblia, O.Fr. bible (13c.) "the Bible," also any large book generally, from Medieval and Late Latin biblia (neuter plural interpreted as feminine singular), in phrase biblia sacra "holy books," a translation of Greek ta biblia to hagia "the holy books," from Gk. biblion "paper, scroll," the ordinary word for "book," originally a diminutive of byblos "Egyptian papyrus," possibly so called from Byblos (modern Jebeil, Lebanon), the name of the Phoenician port from which Egyptian papyrus was exported to Greece (cf. parchment). Or the place name might be from the Greek word, which then would be probably of Egyptian origin. The Christian scripture was referred to in Greek as Ta Biblia as early as c.223.

Testament—I shouldn't have listed it there, it's just a nitpick. Testament is for death, Covenant is for the life. Like witness and martyr, "people of the nations" and Gentiles. Intent is lost.

God—[Strong's #1409]The Scriptures (Explanatory Notes): Gad: Apart from Gad, the son of Ya’aqob (Jacob) there was another "Gad." The astrologers of Babel called Jupiter (Zeus) by the name "Gad." He was also well known among the Canaanites (the Kena’anites) where his name was often coupled with Baal, Baal Gad, which according to the Massoretic vowel pointing in the book of Yehoshua (Joshua) is pronounced: Baal God. This same name is discovered in the ancient Germanic languages as Gott, Goda, Gode, God, Gud, Gade. And searching further back into its Indo-Germanic (Indo-European) roots, we find that it traces back to the word GHODH, which means "union" even "sexual union."

Lord—points back to [Strong's 1167, 1168] Baal, another Phoenician deity—"Ba’al: This word it seems, gradually became a proper name. A similar Semitic word derives from the Aryan root Bhal, which means "to shine," according to some. According to W. H. Roscher’s well-known lexicon of mythology, Ba’al (Bel, Belos) was the ancestral and national deity of the Semites, and says that Ba’al was the founder of Babel (Babylon), according to secular history. He is identified with Zeus, Jupiter, Ammon, Asshur, Assur, Kronos, and Bel-Marduk. Morris Jastrow, Max Müller, and W. H. Roscher all three agree: Baal is the Babylonian sun deity. The Ba’als of the nations were sun deities, and Ba’al worship means sun worship." — We know all about YWHW condemning Ba'al worship.

Now the way that the WT transliterates and translates YHWH into JHVH into YHWH, applied to Baal Gad = Lord God. My grandmother with her accent would refer to "e'gad's", which is what she'd say so as not "to take the LORD's name in vain".

- Exodus—literally, in the Exodus, Israelites were told, "Do not invoke the names of other gods (elohim); do not let them be heard on your lips.”
- Deuteronomy 12:3 "Break down their altars, smash their sacred stones and burn their Asherah [consort of El, not YHWH] poles in the fire; cut down the idols of their gods and wipe out their names from those places.”
- Joshua 23:7 "Do not associate with these nations that remain among you; do not invoke the names of their gods or swear by them. You must not serve them or bow down to them.”
- Hosea 2:17 "I will remove the names of the Baals from her lips; no longer will their names be invoked.”
- Zechariah 13:2 “On that day, I will banish the names of the idols from the land, and they will be remembered no more”

Holy refers to helios. Sun worship. That "holy glow" or "halo" (from Gk. halos "disk of the sun or moon, ring of light around the sun or moon") around the Sun's head. Hebrew would be qadosh, or Greek hágios.

Dictionary of Mythology Folklore and Symbols (1961) states that "In practically all languages, the word "holy" has been derived from the divinely honored sun." and Encyclopedia of Religions (1987) (wanna buy me the set? I'd love to have one!) Holi is the Great Hindu spring festival, held in honour of Krishna, as the spring sun-god. (Date coincides with Easter)

- Amen—see Hebrew Amein for the pure language. The translation brings us to Amen a God (god of life and procreation in Egyptian mythology) of the Thebans who around 1000BC became Amen-Ra, and was worshipped by Egyptians and Alexandrian's. Amen-Ra was the great solar deity and head of the Egyptian pantheon. (Seeing a theme here? Egypt, Babylon, Canaanites, Phoenicians,... now what do they all have in common? Apparently, a love of the sun, moon, and stars, and as YHWH would have it, idol worship.)
- Glory—let me paint a picture for you: naked woman, glorious light, zodiac signs, her name is Gloria, haloed Roman Goddess. Hebrew words kabod and kabad nor the Greek words doxa and dokeo have nothing to do with that. It's about esteem, not about glowing haloes of light, which is just imagery paying homage to solar deities and pagan religions, again.
- Jesus—just like there wasn't a J for YHWH, there wasn't a J for Jesus. J was a decorative I, Iesous was a name playing off of Zeus, which you'll see is linked to Jupiter and Jove, all solar God's. Follow the family tree back up to Apollo. Or read Ovid's Metamophesus. See also: healing goddess Ieso, Egyptian goddess Isis (ESU or ES in heiroglyphics) and her son Isu, the Gallic Esus (compare to Odin), and the mystery name of Bacchus (Tammuz) IHS. (Bacchus who hosted the parties on the Vaticanus hill before the Vatican was born on the flesh of the dead and those who wined and dined drunk from the vine of their rotted blood, literally. I learned SO MUCH living that short period in Rome!) Bacchus was, you guessed it, another sun-deity. Was just checking a fact—wanted to make sure I had it right, and here you go, found a link that has the list and much more detail and from my scan on the info is consistent with what I've learned: ... s_Birthday
- Christ—see Mithras (Rome) and Osiris (Egypt) as Chrestos and Chreston, worshipped at the same time as "Christ" (Christos) and "Christians" came to be. Christian(s) is not a word used but, what, twice even in our translations today? I love the Jewish Ghetto in Rome, the best fiori di zucca fritti! Priscilla and Aquila (Acts 18:1-2) were part of those Jews evicted by Claudius due to the conflicts over "Chrestos" vs "Christos", and the conversion of Jews in the Way. At least according to Romans and some scholars. Y'shua [literally, YHWH is Salvation. Nifty, huh? I love words that reveal.] was also referred to as Messias by the Greeks, that's what I use now.
- Church—Church is from kuriakon or kyriakon in Greek, as in “house of kurius”, “The Lord”; As in the "Lord God”; As in Baal worship of the Sun. Anglo-Saxon root, circe. Circe was the goddess-daughter of Helios, the Sun-deity. Circe was originally a Greek goddess (written and pronounced as Kirke). Kirke = "Church" in Scotland as kirk, in Germany as Kirche, and in Netherlands as kerk.
- “Church” errantly replaced Ekklesia (carrying the meaning of ‘congregation’ or gathering of people in scriptures) which literally a calling out of— as in "get out of her my people". Babylon and Egypt we've now seen were famous for their idol worship of solar deities, which were well linked to those worshipped in Greece and Rome. Babylon, the great city on the river Euphrates, where incidentally there are four angels waiting for the precise day, hour, and minute (was it?) to be released to kill a third of mankind are kept, is no longer. Instead we have Babylon the Great, the whore, mother of whores, and the abominations of the earth, who is described as being full of blasphemous names. The Jerusalem Bible (1966) that I bought thanks to Raymond Franz's recommendation interestingly notes that Babylon is the Church of Rome. The Church of Rome is obviously Catholic, Catholic is the creation of the Universal Christian doctrine. Babylon is the Church. "Church" is not in the scriptures, but Babylon is. :)
- The Cross—More imagery which is so completely telling if you've seen all the images around the world that I have. Constantine is responsible for co-opting the religion we speak of as Christianity, and turning it into the universal Roman Catholic Church. 4 years earlier he was Sol Invictus, and then there was that whole "the cross superimposed on the sun" in A.D. 312. Thus the cross became an image for Christianity, the combo of two sun symbols dating back to ~2500 B.C. and evidenced further by the Ptolemeus III coin from 247-222 B.C. An Illustrated Encyclopedia of Traditional Symbols, the labarum was also an emblem of the Chaldean sky-god. Compare the chi-rho symbol (superimposed) which looks an awful lot like Χ ξ ς (666) which you'll recognize as the symbol used in the epic imagery of the the WHO (Revelation 9:21, 18:23, 21:8, see Strong's G #5331,5332, but my momma says I can't consume tincture of one herb, though she promotes all other's as given to us by YHWH for natural healing... hmm... still don't know what to think about that.) and from there you can see it everywhere. (IHS = Trinity of Isis, Horus, Seb)

Ichthus (fish) as "Iesous Christos Theos Uios soter" incidentally refers to every bit of what I just spent all this discourse on, and in it not one word of The Word. But the symbol you see all over Europe's Churches resembles every bit of the Χ ξ ς.

The first time I saw the name YHWH as an inscription I knew that something was amiss. kakós.

[image is Solar Apollo with the radiant halo of Helios in a floor mosaic, El Djem, Tunisia, late 2nd century. Beautiful, isn't it? Looks like the Lord Jesus Christ Sun of God, doesn't it?]


I woke up, read and realized that "Hebrew Roots" is a group. As my pseudo-name denotes, I am one and apart from any group and wanted to clarify that while I found that link via a search for the list of solar deities (Wikipedia didn't list Bacchus for some reason?) I don't endorse what I didn't even know was a group.

I also wanted to say that I believe that YHWH is THE most high GOD, and his son is THE christ. However, it's simply so much clear and succinct once you know the background of pagan roots in Christianity, or simply syncretism, to say that I confess YHWH and his son, Y'shua, the Messiah as my salvation.

Y'Zeus, J'Zeus, Jesus. Jupiter, J'Pater, Y'Pater. Jupiter is Jove, and Roman equivalent of Greek Zeus. Satan has had a field day with names, and thus I believe to know is to recognize by reputation. John 17:3


As for your question—This one is interesting—isn't the reason the whole world is lying in the power of the wicked one the fact that Our Father created us in innocence, and Satan took away our innocence (expose us to knowledge of good and bad)? Isn't it interesting, the love displayed? He said that man must die. Imagine living forever in a land of knowledge of good and bad. What do we learn from that? I take away we were created, as Ros pointed out, with choice. The ability for either. Innocence leaves us without mal intent. Without innocence we were fully aware and some came to chose what others do not. Steinbeck's East of Eden sticks in my mind with "thou mayest". מָשַׁל “But the Hebrew word, the word timshel—‘Thou mayest’— that gives a choice. It might be the most important word in the world. That says the way is open. That throws it right back on a man. For if ‘Thou mayest’—it is also true that ‘Thou mayest not.” [Genesis 4:7: "You will be accepted if you do what is right. But if you refuse to do what is right, then watch out! Sin is crouching at the door, eager to control you. But you must subdue it and be its master."] Strong's 4910: timsal: מָשַׁל

To be something is not to demonstrate it. To have something is not to use it. Separate ability from action. There are some very rich homeless men, by choice.

Omniscient (infinite knowledge) “having complete or unlimited knowledge, awareness, or understanding; perceiving all things.”

Job 26:6 Death is naked before God; Destruction lies uncovered.
Psalm 33:13 From heaven He looks down and sees all mankind
Psalm 139:4 Before a word is on my tongue you know it completely
Proverbs 5:21 For a man's ways are in full view of the LORD, and he examines all his paths.
Proverbs 15:3 The eyes of the LORD are everywhere, keeping watch on the wicked and the good.
Jeremiah 16:17 My eyes are on all their ways; they are not hidden from me, nor is their sin concealed from my eyes.
Jeremiah 23:24 Can anyone hide in secret places so that I cannot see him?" declares Yehowah. "Do not I fill heaven and earth?" declares Yehowah.
Hebrews 4:13 Nothing in all creation is hidden from Yehowah's sight. Everything is uncovered and laid bare before the eyes of him to whom we must give account.

Now about that sight...

Ezekiel 10 I looked, and I saw beside the cherubim four wheels, one beside each of the cherubim; the wheels sparkled like chrysolite. As for their appearance, the four of them looked alike; each was like a wheel intersecting a wheel. As they moved, they would go in any one of the four directions the cherubim faced; the wheels did not turn aboutc as the cherubim went. The cherubim went in whatever direction the head faced, without turning as they went. Their entire bodies, including their backs, their hands and their wings, were completely full of eyes, as were their four wheels. I heard the wheels being called “the whirling wheels.” Each of the cherubim had four faces: One face was that of a cherub, the second the face of a man, the third the face of a lion, and the fourth the face of an eagle.

Omnipotence (unlimited power)

ruler of all, ruler of the universe, the almighty.
pantokrátōr (from 3956 /pás, "all" and 2902 /kratéō, "prevail") – properly, almighty; unrestricted power exercising absolute dominion.

Omnipresence (present everywhere)

2 Chronicles 16:9 The eyes of Yehowah search the whole earth in order to strengthen those whose hearts are fully committed to him.

Psalm 139:7–10 Where can I go from Your Spirit? Or where can I flee from Your presence? If I ascend into heaven, You are there; if I make my bed in hell, behold, You are there. If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea, even there Your hand shall lead me, and Your right hand shall hold me”

Psalm 11:4 Yehowah is in his holy Temple; Yehowah still rules from heaven. He watches everyone closely, examining every person on earth.

Omnibenevolence (perfect goodness)

Psalm 18:30 Elohim's way is perfect. All Yehowah's promises prove true. He is a shield for all who look to him for protection.
Deuteronomy 32:4 He is the Rock, his works are perfect, and all his ways are just. A faithful Elohim who does no wrong, upright and just is he.
Psalms 18:25, 26 To the faithful you show yourself faithful, to the blameless you show yourself blameless, to the pure you show yourself pure, but to the crooked you show yourself shrewd.

Now, I spent 20 years under the Watchful all-seeing eye of the Watchtower, and accepted things as I was taught, until I found salve for my eyes because I simply was so spiritually hungry! After fourty years you must be entirely malnourished if your experience was like mine. (I was so well behaved, I only studied the Watchtower, and as unfulfilling as I found it, I only picked at my food.) But you know what, you decided to leave that table—so leave it behind! It sounds like, though, based on your "I question everything now... twice." you must be eating at the tables of other still.

You know that the Spirit will come and guide you, right? I am pasting in below something I compiled for

Taught by YHWH

Jesus said, “No man can come to me unless the Father, who sent me, draws him; and I will resurrect him in the last day. It is written in the Prophets, ‘And they will all be taught by YHWH.’ Everyone that has heard from the Father and has learned comes to me. Not that any man has seen the Father, except he who is from God; this one has seen the Father. Most truly I say to you, He that believes has everlasting life.”

Jesus said, “I am the bread of life. Your forefathers ate the manna in the wilderness and yet died. This is the bread that comes down from heaven, so that anyone may eat of it and not die. I am the living bread that came down from heaven; if anyone eats of this bread he will live forever; and, for a fact, the bread that I shall give is my flesh in behalf of the life of the world.”

Jesus said to them: “Most truly I say to you, Unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in yourselves. He that feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood has everlasting life, and I shall resurrect him at the last day; for my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink. He that feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood remains in union with me, and I in union with him. Just as the living Father sent me forth and I live because of the Father, he also that feeds on me, even that one will live because of me. This is the bread that came down from heaven. It is not as when your forefathers ate and yet died. He that feeds on this bread will live forever.”

“What, therefore, if you should behold the Son of man [de]scending to where he was before? It is the spirit that is life-giving; the flesh is of no use at all. The sayings that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life. But there are some of you that do not believe.”

For from [the] beginning Jesus knew who were the ones not believing and who was the one that would betray him. So he went on to say: “This is why I have said to you, No one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.”

Owing to this many of his disciples went off to the things behind and would no longer walk with him. Therefore Jesus said to the twelve: “You do not want to go also, do you?”

Simon Peter answered him: “Lord, whom shall we go away to? You have sayings of everlasting life; and we have believed and come to know that you are the Holy One of God.” — John 6:44-69

Yes, there is no “where” to go away to—it is only Jesus that has sayings of everlasting life, and there is no salvation in anyone else, nor any other name under heaven that has been given by which we my be saved. — Acts 4:12

Jesus promised us, “If you love me, you will observe my commandments; and I will request the Father and he will give you another helper to be with you forever, the spirit of the truth, which the world cannot receive, because it neither beholds it nor knows it. You know it, because it remains with you and is in you. I shall not leave you bereaved. I am coming to you. A little longer and the world will behold me no more, but you will behold me, because I live and you will live. In that day you will know that I am in union with my Father and you are in union with me and I am in union with you. He that has my commandments and observes them, that one is he who loves me. In turn he that loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and will plainly show myself to him.” — John 14:15-21

Yes, we receive a helper, the spirit of the truth—Holy Spirit. Jesus promised “the helper, the holy spirit, which the Father will send in my name, that one will teach you all things and bring back to your minds all the things I told you.” (John 14:26)

“That is why I also, since I have heard of the faith you have in the Lord Jesus and toward all the holy ones, do not cease giving thanks for you. I continue mentioning you in my prayers, that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give you a spirit of wisdom and of revelation in the accurate knowledge of him; the eyes of your heart having been enlightened, that you may know what is the hope to which he called you, what the glorious riches are which he holds as an inheritance for the holy ones, and what the surpassing greatness of his power is toward us believers. It is according to the operation of the mightiness of his strength, with which he has operated in the case of the Christ when he raised him up from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly places, far above every government and authority and power and lordship and every name named, not only in this system of things, but also in that to come. He also subjected all things under his feet, and made him head over all things to the congregation, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills up all things in all.” — Ephesians 1:15-22

“And he came and declared the good news of peace to you, the ones far off, and peace to those near, because through him we, both peoples, have the approach to the Father by one spirit. Certainly, therefore, you are no longer strangers and alien residents, but you are fellow citizens of the holy ones and are members of the household of God, and you have been built up upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, while Christ Jesus himself is the foundation cornerstone. In union with him the whole building, being harmoniously joined together, is growing into a holy temple for YHWH. In union with him you, too, are being built up together into a place for God to inhabit by spirit.” — Ephesians 2:17-22

“Christ is head of the congregation, he being a savior of [this] body… the congregation is in subjection to the Christ… Christ also loved the congregation and delivered up himself for it, that he might sanctify it, cleansing it with the bath of water by means of the word, that he might present the congregation to himself in its splendor, not having a spot or a wrinkle or any of such things, but that it should be holy and without blemish… Christ also [feeds and cherishes] the congregation, because we are members of his body.” — Ephesians 5:21-30

“Christ set us free. Therefore stand fast, and do not let yourselves be confined again in a yoke of slavery.” — Galatians 5:1

Now back to Matthew 19:26, I took the scripture out of context. What was the context? If I find myself in an argumentative mode, I apply it against the method I learned from the WT. So instead of accepting a verse of scripture out of context, I seek the context and the real intent—I dig, as if the Kingdom of heaven were buried treasure!—What's the context? How would you apply it?

Flat, I'm glad your car is running like a top now. I hope you had a good drink to relax and enjoy the fruit of your work.

To close, I'll answer your question: "why would He need angels reporting anything?"

I added the emphasis. I don't think he "needs" anything. Did he need to create us—Was he lonely? I was watching the series Downton Abbey and they addressed this question from another aspect. A common man suddenly became a Lord, and he rebuked the ways of that lifestyle as being unnecessary. Of course, he was right. However, in doing so he learned a lesson. The man who dressed him, who he would no longer allow to do so, found it to be an honor to serve. It's what he does. It's his labour for which he finds honor and is paid. He took pleasure in it, and found satisfaction in the measure of his service.

All those angels, with nothing to do! Does he need them? No.

The animated movie "Bee Movie" addressed this. Once the bees realized they didn't have to make honey, they stopped. For a little bit they luxuriated in no work—vacation—but they were depressed later. No sense of purpose, nothing of meaning to do. Their work, when they were not slaves to it, was meaningful.

He allows the angels to serve him, he allows us choice or free-will.

If you do have an angel who is watching over you, then I imagine he's pretty sad. You've hurt his feelings, no?

By the end of a few episode, the new Lord realized the effect his actions and allowed the man who would have otherwise been without a job, literally, resume service. It was a simple but emotional moment. He simply asked the man's opinion for cufflinks, and then allowed him to set them.

Hope you eat well! Thou mayest! :)

A joke: "What's greater than Yehowah, worse than the devil, the angels live on it, but if man eats it, he'll die?"
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In honor of Rosie's ChannelC II

Post by angelaglass » Thu Sep 22, 2016 3:00 am


I have a question for you guys—I wonder if you would share with me your beliefs on the identity of the rider of the white horse, of the four horsemen, of Revelation 6. Is he the Christ or the AntiChrist?

My belief is linked below. I'm hoping to gain insight from you all, so as to have a firm foundation.


Link: Christ or AntiChrist?


Hi Editor! :)

I have been reading E.W. Bullinger's commentaries, which I came to a few months ago in my study of the body of Christ and the Lamb's bride. I find his write up of Revelation laborious, so I've left it for a bit. Frankly, reading older texts from the 1800's seems like translating another language at times, I find. I found the commentary after reading this quote regarding F.H. Robison, "While acting as secretary to Pastor Russell, he was handed a copy of Dr. Bullinger's Apocalypse to read and report the gist of its contents. In response to an inquiry by Pastor Russell after reading, he replied "Dr. Bullinger seems to think that the book of Revelation is for the Jew." Pastor Russell replied, "He may be right.""

I am awaiting the book I linked to below to arrive from Amazon. A pictorial version of Revelation. I found the cover quite creepy. I had the thought recently that it seems like Revelation might be able to be best comprehended in our modern day and age of movies like Momento, The Matrix, The Machinist, Cloud Atlas, etc, which drop in and out of scenes moving back and forth in time and depth of detail, moving about the story in a woven manner.

Personally, it's of interest of me after having the "ah ha!" moment where it really hit me—speaking with an acquaintance who descended of Muhammad and was comparing and contrasting him to Jesus, and said that Muhammad wrote everything, and Jesus nothing. But, wait!—I realized Revelation is his book, and thus my deepest desire in study of late (which of course may take a lifetime!) was to truly understand his book. I'm so excited and hope that I'm alive when the movie comes out—that is to say when the Revelation hits the theatre, where all the world is a stage! :)

Thanks for the input. What might cause you to come out of the wood work more often? I could be found as an instigator!

Link: The Book of Revelation in Illustrations


I believe that there are distinct versions of the "good news" (preached), and am curious if you recognize a similar distinction, or if not which you might specify as more accurately represents your perspective. Also wondering your thoughts on Ros' response to your post referencing 1 John 2:18-22.

It's like the good news is from a "newspaper", it depends on which day it is on which good news there is. I think of it as being The Word (logos, Son) of Truth (John 1:1,14).

When the Messiah Came it was The Good News of the Kingdom: "The time has come," he said. "The kingdom of God is near. Repent and believe the good news!" Mark 1:15

When that days news was complete, a new edition came out, as testified to by Paul: "But even the sacrifice of my life I count as nothing, if only I may perfect my earthly course, and be faithful to the duty which the Lord Jesus has entrusted to me of proclaiming, as of supreme importance, the Good News of God's grace." Acts 20:24 This good news involves the great sacred secret, which is the 'this' good news that Paul refers to in Ephesians 3.

Jesus prophesied that before the end will come we would return to the Good News of the Kingdom—just as the purpose was in John's day clearing up the way for the Messiah as the Elijah, to announce the Kingdom at the advent of the Messiah's first presence on earth, it will be done again prior to the end. "And this good news of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come."

So basically the primary forms of the good news have been and are (1) announcing the Kingdom is near, or (2) grace, for you too. There are others, for example the "everlasting good news" proclaimed by the angel in Revelation.

Flat, I agree with you. I asked a JW friend, former elder and one of the bedrock families of the area if he could tell me what the good news was, back before I learned it for myself, and he stumbled and stuttered.


Anointed doesn't mean you feed others Posted at 7:51 am on Nov 12, 2012
Don't know if I saw this mentioned but the other significance of this change is being "one of the anointed" does not mean that you are part of the FDS, which prevents them from having to deal with those who have or teach beliefs distinct that of the Governing Body, yet "profess to be of the anointed". Previous approach of the FSD was to imply mental illness. :)


I've been thinking about this over the past day now, and am curious your thoughts then on a few specific things. I don't intend to argue, just curious and collecting "data" to inform my own beliefs. Perhaps it's a mountain out of a molehill? :)

In any case, here's an excerpt from a Zondervan encyclopedia, and I wonder your thoughts on using "Lord" when lord means Baal (see Strong's), and secondly, how it is that you understand "Jesus" as translated from "Yehowshua" (or any variation of the original language name given him by the Father)?

Here's the excerpt. I take Hosea's Israel calling her husband the wrong name "in bed" as it were, very seriously. Especially in light of the ending noted—Israel left Baal, but we've renamed the Son as Lord.

The northe rn kingdom was more susceptible to the inroads of the native Canaanite cults than was the more isolated and largely agricultural kingdom of Judah. Thus Israel sustained the deliberate attempt by the Phoen. princess Jezebel to obliterate Yahweh worship (cf. 1 Kings 18:4 ) and make Baal (prob. Baal-melqart) the official god. Only 7000 Israelites remained true to Yahweh ( 19:18 ), but the crisis was averted by the decisive action of the prophet Elijah ( ch. 18 ).

The 8th cent. prophets recognized the dangers inherent in the situation and called the people back to a belief in Yehowah alone and to a cult purified of its Canaanite accretions. Hosea proposed that the name of Baal be no longer employed of Yehowah (Hosea 2:16,17) and he and Jeremiah, of all the prophets, pointed out the dangers of a Canaanized cultus to a people who were quite unaware of their apostasy (e.g. Jer 2:23 ). Once this was realized, the name of Baal was regarded with abhorrence, and editorial treatment was applied in many instances to names in which it occurred. Often the word for “shame” (Heb. , ) was substituted, as in the forms Jerubbesheth ( 2 Sam 11:21 ), Ish-bosheth ( 2:8 ), Mephibosheth ( 9:6 ), and even where the Canaanite deity himself was involved (e.g. Jer 3:24 ; 11:13 ; Hos 9:10 ). Only after two major reformations aimed at the elimination of Baal worship ( 2 Kings 18:4-6 ; 23:4-15 ) and the chastisement involved in the national disaster of 587 b.c., did a majority of the Jews finally forsake the last vestiges of Baal worship and turn in contrition to Yahweh, the covenant-God.

Hosea 2:16,17 : Most translations obscure the truth.

Ishi is "my man" referring to husband, and Baali is "my baal". Note that "LORD" is retained in the same sentence, which of course translates from "Baal". Irony. Please, will you take a moment to jump through Strong's online looking at these two verses?

"16 And it shall be at that day, saith the LORD, that thou shalt call me Ishi; and shalt call me no more Baali.

17 For I will take away the names of Baalim out of her mouth, and they shall no more be remembered by their name."

The entire book of Hosea is regarding Israel as an adulterous wife, depicting her spiritual fornication as prostitution, specifically by name naming Ba'al, and all the Baals. She called out the wrong name in bed!

In your mind, is it okay to use "Lord" instead? I think about how it is our Father speaks of the "pure language" and that makes much more sense.


Somerset had pointed me to a Harvard Theological article, the Horned Hunter on Lost Gnostic Gem. The papers interpret the horned hunter as being a hunter with a bow. I linked to some thoughts that I am working through right now regarding that. Somerset had pointed me to the article as proof point of the name "YHWH" as having been used much earlier than often asserted. (I have a quesy feeling, I do not believe "YHWH" is an accurate representation of our Father, translation or not; I believe Yehowah is not the same as YHWH, translating the "Y" and "v" being destructive to his identity. I am emailing Attilio, the other author I mention, and have his book.)


Link: Horned Hunter (Hunter with Bow)


templeWhen they had finished eating, Jesus said to Simon Peter, "Simon son of John, do you truly love me more than these?" "Yes, Lord," he said, "you know that I love you." Jesus said, "Feed my lambs."

“Who then is the faithful and wise servant, whom the master has put in charge of the servants in his household to give them their food at the proper time?

Again Jesus said, "Simon son of John,Jesus said, "Take care of my sheep."

Logically, then, “the faithful and discreet slave” must have appeared after Christ’s presence began in 1914.

“No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father."

The third time he said to him, "Simon son of John, do you love me?" Peter was hurt because Jesus asked him the third time, "Do you love me?" He said, "Lord, you know all things; you know that I love you." Jesus said, "Feed my sheep."

It will be good for that servant whose master finds him doing so when he returns.

“At an hour that you do not think to be it, the Son of man is coming.”

From 1919 on, there has always been a small group of anointed Christians at the world headquarters of YHWH’s Witnesses.

But suppose that servant is wicked and says to himself, ‘My master is staying away a long time,’ and he then begins to beat his fellow servants and to eat and drink with spiritual drunkards.

Although they were anointed by holy spirit, the apostles and other first-century Christians were not “the faithful and discreet slave” prophesied by Jesus.

Woe to those who are enacting harmful regulations and those who, constantly writing, have written out sheer trouble,...

"What pedophiles?" order to push away the lowly ones from a legal case "Wait on YHWH." to wrest away justice from the afflicted ones of my people,

"What should be kept in mind if we want some or all of our assets to go to YHWH's organization upon our death?"

for the widows to become their spoil, and that they may plunder even the fatherless boys! And what will YOU men do at the day of being given attention and at the ruin, when it comes from far away?

"It is reasonable to conclude, then, that Jesus appointed “the faithful and discreet slave” over “his domestics” during his presence, “the conclusion of the system of things.”

Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them ina the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”

The evidence points to the following conclusion: “The faithful and discreet slave” was appointed over Jesus’ domestics in 1919.

The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of. He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

“Tell us,” they said, “when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?”

Jesus answered: “Watch out that no one deceives you. For many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am the Anointed One’ and will deceive many.

That slave is the small, composite group of anointed brothers serving at world headquarters during Christ’s presence who are directly involved in preparing and dispensing spiritual food. When this group work together as the Governing Body, they act as “the faithful and discreet slave.”

Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers, not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, saying that the day of the Lord has already come.

“The Light Gets Brighter” (Song No. 116) from Sing to YHWH.

Its lyrics include these appropriate words:

Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way,

“Our Lord has appointed a trustworthy slave,"

so that he sets himself up in God’s temple [Bethel], proclaiming himself to be [sole channel of] God (John 1:1), [who appointed them as the slave].

“The faithful and discreet slave” was appointed over Jesus’ domestics in 1919.

Through whom He gives food in due season.

for [that day will not come] until the rebellion occurs

The light of the truth has grown brighter with time,

and the man of lawlessnessa is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.

Appealing to heart and to reason.”

He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped

On judgment day many will say to me, 'Lord! Lord! We prophesied in your name and cast out demons in your name and performed many miracles in your name.' And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’

“Immediately after the distress of those days

“‘the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’

“At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

Logically, then, “the faithful and discreet slave” must have appeared after Christ’s presence began in 1914.

For false Anointed Ones and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect—if that were possible.

But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what time of night the thief was coming, he would have kept watch and would not have let his house be broken into. So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him.

For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way. 8And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming. The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with the work of Satan displayed in all kinds of counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders, and in every sort of evil that deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lieand so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.


To clarify, I believe that the Son of man will come and every eye will see him, that the workers of lawlessness are those of Christianity—all religion is false religion from Babylon the Great, the mother of religion—and that "Lord, Lord" is ironic, and that words are used to deceive—"false Christs" are "false anointed ones", literally. To prophesy is explain or proclaim "the Word" in his name. "The truth" isn't a religion, it's a man who died for all mankind, and He shall set you free, if you hear his voice and listen to him. Ugh. So frustrating!

And YHWH's Witnesses didn't even believe that Jesus came in 1914 until the early 1930's. I guess they found it difficult to measure the physical density of his glory with him being invisible and all. Who needs to claim he's in the desert or an inner room, when he's invisible! ;)


I agree with you, RR. Its the reason I can't seem to grasp how it is once, as a JW, you start thinking you can reason that he would have an "invisible presence" (in addition to all the other reasons: return as he left (angels who appear while the apostles jaws dropped watching him leave; every man will see, etc).

Credo quia absurdum = I believe because it is absurd

I believe because I have faith.

I believe because my heart calls out, "Abba, Father."

[Note, my father passed when I was young, so calling on our Father was calling on my only Father.]

I believe because the spirit moves me.

I believe because I was chosen [to believe].

I believe because there are so many reasons—tempting, deceiving, seductive reasons—which have come to attempt to me not believe.

Why would I give up my childlike innocence, my faith, my hope and my love... to die like a man?

I believe, and because I believe, this is my life.

I believe, and because I believe, I am absurd. ;)

"Cogito ergo sum"... ergo I am, I think, therefore...?

In the video, "special powers" is innocence, and "something special, something that made us different" is faith, and the rest probably simply makes sense. The fire? Matthew 3:11.

Link: Be... Your Faith Might Spread


No. I think that to know someone isn't to know their name as much as who they are. That said, I would be offended if someone ran around calling me Satan all the time, saying that it's how my name was pronounced in their language.

I think about all the names in our modern day that have no translation. How does Shaneekquia translate? If her name doesn't translate, then why should the name of our Father and his Son? But do you need to know how to pronounce it to be saved? I don't think so, unless He is to instruct us in how what that name is and how to say it. But... again... you shouldn't go around calling him what he isn'tjust because you don't know what he is.

I will admit, I hold anger against my upbringing for teaching me God's name, as if "YHWH" was the name spoken in ancient Israel.

Once, when I was in kindergarden, based on my faith and upbringing, when a little boy talked about the statue of liberty, I argued with him and told him nuh-uh, the statue of Liberty didn't really exist (I suppose I had her confused with Santa and the Easter Bunny). I persuaded my kindergarden classmates that she wasn't real.

I proclaimed the name of YHWH to far more people. Every time I read a scriptures regarding "the name" and "YHWH" I can't help to cringe...

If we are to call on their proper names, honey, it doesn't matter how hard we try—that ain't it.

Ever been in a foreign language class, get called on by the teacher, and never had a clue?

Of course our Father's wife knows what I'm talking about... she fornicated with the Lord and her husband divorced her. If the bed is marriage, and she fornicated with Ba'al, and her husband, our Father, said he would remove the names of the Ba'als from her lips... I imagine what he's getting at is that the woman called on the wrong name in bed.

Who are you in bed with? Are you gonna call on the name of the Lord, Flat? [The book of Jeremiah speaks of inheriting ignorance, then chronicles his reaction.]


So who do you believe that the image in Revelation of the rider of the white horse of the four horsemen is or prefigures? He rides out and conquers, who—or what?

I believe the mystery of lawlessness refers to being without law, which is the era we live in, that which follows the era of the Hebrew law. In finding ourselves without law, we turned to religion. The mystery of lawlessness is never turning to our Father, the heavenly Creator, and instead continually turning to man to govern us, even in faith. It is the story of the nation all over again. Thus, the mystery sames "even now" to "now", and there are many false Christs and false prophets, but I'm not certain if there is not one who rises in the end—he who is part of Daniel's account, the rider who deceives us into believing he is the "Christ" in Revelation, also figured in the account of the beast and prophet in Revelation...? Likewise, I wonder, do you feel that the images of Revelation are each distinct, or are they layers of depth in the same story? Are the beginning pangs in Matthew 24 the same events as the Four Horsemen? Or are the Four the same as other events in Revelation?

Revelation only speaks once of sheep, at the fall of Babylon.

So you think both white horse riders (Rev 6, 19) are the same? Who do you think he is?


When Did Jesus Appoint “the Faithful and Discreet Slave” Over His Domestics?

Consider the context of Jesus’ words in Matthew chapter 24. All the verses listed here were to be fulfilled during Christ’s presence, “the conclusion of the system of things.”—Verse 3.

- “The tribulation of those days.”—Verse 29.
- “This generation.”—Verse 34.
- “That day and hour.”—Verse 36.
- The “day your Lord is coming.”—Verse 42.
- “At an hour that you do not think to be it, the Son of man is coming.”—Verse 44.

Logically, then, “the faithful and discreet slave” must have appeared after Christ’s presence began in 1914.

The evidence points to the following conclusion: “The faithful and discreet slave” was appointed over Jesus’ domestics in 1919. That slave is the small, composite group of anointed brothers serving at world headquarters during Christ’s presence who are directly involved in preparing and dispensing spiritual food. When this group work together as the Governing Body, they act as “the faithful and discreet slave.”

Jesus said: “All authority has been given me in heaven and on the earth.” (Matthew 28:18) Jesus’ “belongings” thus include more than just his earthly interests. They include the Messianic Kingdom.—Philippians 2:9-11. Consequently, Jesus will reward “the faithful and discreet slave” by resurrecting the individual members of that group to heavenly life and by giving them royal authority over all Christ’s belongings in heaven and on earth. This is the same reward promised to all faithful anointed Christians.—Luke 22:28-30; Revelation 20:6.

It's just false reasoning. Don't try to make sense of senselessness.

They believe that, Christ's presence began invisibly in 1914 [As the January 1, 1924 Watchtower confidently proclaimed, “Surely there is not the slightest room for doubt in the mind of a truly consecrated child of God that the Lord Jesus is present and has been since 1874…”] Even though they teach nothing now that they taught then, and believed that he had come 40 years earlier, and didn't 'realize' it until 17 years later("Vindication" 1931)—despite this—they assert that Christ appointed them in 1919.

However, the WT does not include the slaves to whom the parable was addressed in the first century, nor to the one whom three time the Christ told to "feed my sheep" and care for them, whom it was also noted that he would build his assembly. Now, if we continue to ignore context, we can attempt to reason as they have— Resurrected, the Christ appeared and told his apostles that "all authority has been given him". The assuming "faithful and discerning" slave assumes because while he was given assignment to feed the household, that now that they realize that the master has far larger authority than just the house—that they too will take on more authority. Spiritual drunkards can't see straight. First they denied the "domestics" were of the "house" because the "house" I'm certain they understood to be in heaven—but Flat, remember the riddle—What do angels eat?

Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that our Father gave him. He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.

Therefore, dear friends, since you already know this, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position. But grow in the grace and knowledge...

"He catches the wise in their craftiness"... "Such "wisdom" does not come down from heaven but is earthly, unspiritual, of the devil." The context shows that this is contrasted against "Who is wise and understanding among you? Let him show it by his good life, by deeds done in the humility that comes from wisdom." Humility. Wisdom. "But if you harbor bitter envy, for example of the position of the man, the Christ, and selfish ambition in your hearts, wishing to be exalted on high as he is, one is warned—do not boast about it or deny the truth". Who is the truth? Or what is the truth? He said of himself, "I am the truth"... "and the truth will set you free", if you hear and recognize his voice. If the Christ is the Truth, and then isn't to deny the truth, twisting scriptures ignorantly, to deny the Christ? And what do we call one who denies the Christ? Is that a false prophet, and/or an antichrist?

"October 1914. At that time, “the appointed times of the nations” ended, and Jesus Christ was installed as God’s heavenly King."

"You think you already have everything you need. You think you are already rich. You have begun to reign in God's kingdom without us! I wish you really were reigning already, for then we would be reigning with you."—"For God had something better in mind for us [together], so that they would not reach perfection without us."

The WT references "Vine’s Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words (1981, Vol. 1, pp. 208, 209) states: “PAROUSIA . . . denotes both an arrival and a consequent presence with. ... When used of the return of Christ, at the Rapture of the Church, it signifies, not merely His momentary coming for His saints, but His presence with them from that moment until His revelation and manifestation to the world.” Liddell and Scott’s Greek-English Lexicon (revised by H. Jones, Oxford, 1968, p. 1343) shows that pa·rou·si′a is used at times in secular Greek literature to refer to the “visit of a royal or official personage.”"

I honestly find it baffling how it is that they get away with all this. (Though, I was a lost sheep in their fold, blind and following their lead for nearly 20 years myself.) The Kingdom is announced at the 7th trumpet. We can clearly see all the events that happen prior to that trumpet. The Christ is noted to return gathering chosen (1 Cor 15:52)... Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power.

How can his presence have begun invisibly in 1914, the Kingdom and events are laid out so simply elsewhere to show what "must take place"?

They are feeding alright, but I think the most interesting things are in what we haven't discussed... If he hasn't come to reward them for their work, then their work is still yet to be judged, and thus their food could be found lacking in the flavor of truth. It means now they have consolidated the control of "who" is the slave so as other "anointed" ones cannot also claim to feed—just them... but they have also lost the ability to claim that their food has already been judged as "faithfully discerning" [intelligent, prudent: 'acting with or showing care and thought for the future']. Whoopsies!

Barnes', "This passage is, in fact, "a parable," though it is not expressly so called. The design is to show that his disciples should act as if they were each moment expecting his return. This he illustrates by the conduct of a servant who did not expect his master soon to return, who acted with great impropriety, and who was accordingly punished."

Meanwhile, the account in Luke makes it a bit more clear, the verse preceding, "Peter asked, “Lord, are you telling this parable to us, or to everyone?” The reply? Who really will be the faithful and wise steward?... another parable. Other scriptures show us that in the household ones have different gifts or responsibilities, "Do not all be teachers, my brothers, because we teachers will be judged more hardly than others." As noted by Paul, "Pay close attention to your life and your teaching. Persevere in these things, because if you do so, you will save both yourself and those who listen to you." Lastly, to speak of the Word to teach it, is to prophesy. (See Strong's.) The WT refocuses prophesy more into the future aspect, but to simply proclaim or expound on the Word is also to prophesy.

Note below as Clarkes speaks of appointment, since we know that the Christ does not return until the end, this appointment happens in spirit. Presence, regardless of how they explain it, is not a component of this appointment. "No longer will a man teach his neighbor, or a man his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,' because they will all know me, from the least of them to the greatest." We're all just slaves, responsible for our actions, especially those done in the "name of the Lord".

Clarkes: "Who then is a faithful and wise servant - All should live in the same expectation of the coming of Christ, which a servant has with respect to the return of his master, who, in departing for a season, left the management of his affairs to him; and of which management he is to give an exact account on his master's return.

Here is an abstract of the duties of a minister of Christ.

1. He is appointed, not by himself, but by the vocation and mission of his Master.
2. He must look on himself, not as the master of the family, but as the servant.
3. He must be scrupulously faithful and exact in fulfilling the commands of his Master.
4. His fidelity must be ever accompanied by wisdom and prudence.
5. He must give the domestics - the sacred family, their food; and this food must be such as to afford them true nourishment. And
6. This must be done in its season. There are certain portions of the bread of life which lose their effect by being administered out of proper season, or to improper persons."

Link: Medley of Woe, Who REALLY is the FDS?


Jeopardy: "The is the ultimate god of entire ancient Egypt; many of the Egyptians considered him as the God of Kings and King of Gods; He is the oldest and the most worshipped ruler of ancient Egypt."

What is Amun-Ra? (Amen-Ra, Ra)

Who the "Almighty God" is depends on your culture. I find that out real fast when speaking to someone of Egyptian influence. "Amen" is used in spell casting, and means "Hidden Light"; symbolized by ram, a reference to fertility. Seems all the Gods of pagan origin go back to either worship of solar or sex.

Do you believe these Gods also worship the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob?

Gnostics view the Creator God as being evil and lesser than Asherah, as well as a few others.

Prior to getting to read your posts tonight (above in the thread, mostly to JVB) I didn't realize that you believed there to be gods on earth that are dispatched here by our Father, ruling nations. I was more along the lines of Flat's understanding.

You have opened up a whole interesting realm of research for me.

I personally have had the belief that all gods besides the "True God" were all pagan. Though I did make note of the angels that were dispatched to nations, like the angel that was delayed because he was assisting another or something to that affect.

I wish that the forums let you search further than 90 days back. I'm also very interested in the before The Word became flesh debates you mentioned.


I have to read up on the rider of the white horse being Rome. When you say that, do you mean as in Babylon, sitting on the seven hills? The splitting from Jerusalem to Rome?

I also believe that Paul is speaking to the prophecy last trumpet of Revelation as well, which makes sense given his special commission and his being given the revelation of the great sacred secret (or mystery).

I'm gonna do my reading and then I'll likely have follow up questions! Thanks Ros!


Then you're neither cold nor warm. So be it.

A day to him is a thousand years to us. Calculate out how long your life lasts on his scale.

I read the scriptures start to finish in 90 days and was blown away, there's a story that goes from -4000 AD to +2000 AD and counting which is coherent, methodical and planned. What I don't see in that general day-to-day sense, I see overall, and meanwhile, I suppose maybe because I do with faith believe in him, I do see the benefit of his existence and grand plan in my life.

Arguing with people is opposite the point of being taught by the Spirit. Be taught by the Spirit and test the teachings to ensure it's the right one. When you talk with people hopefully you're comfortable in your faith of what you believe and thus you're collecting information and sharing, but not tossed by the diversity of thought. Whatever you do, every interaction, go back in prayer begging for the spirit to increase your understanding and wisdom and accurate knowledge. At least that's what I do and I find that each day I get a little carried away by the discussions and the crowd and the diversity and the excitement I feel a little less "solid". It's so important to while we walk this world to stay in touch with truth, and that spirit of truth. Influence like people is like "goodies" as opposed to organic nutrition. Some goodies are still good for you, but overall you can't keep fit if you don't keep a balance. :)

You're in my prayers. Have you ever considered the interestingness of praying for someone by an alias? I'm pretty sure he knows who I'm talking about when I say, "You know, Flat, who lives in the neighborhood full of popcorn..." :)


Arius, a few months ago I had stumbled into that Questions Reader's Ask response myself. In reading the scriptures through consecutively using varied translations, I had been struck by Abraham, father of a great multitude, who would become like the stars of the sky and the sands of the sea... which then seemingly is fulfilled after the fullness of the nations come in and then the great mutltude is described in Revelation. He being the foretold father of that very same great multitude, and Paul's accounts explaining the details of that great sacred secret, the body.

I couldn't help but wonder "why not?"—Why couldn't the poetic beauty of the description turn out to be true... that Abraham's children would be as the stars of the sky (living in heaven) and the sands of the sea (living as men on earth)? His spiritual descendants, i.e. those of faith and thus receiving the promise, figured as the great crowd in heaven, and the remnant 144k (taken out of two different time period of world events; first and second presences during the Jewish and Christian religious systems) and those of his fleshly descendants who had hard hearts, never came to be believers, until it was no longer a matter of faith, but of proof, who come then to believe in their Messiah—who then inherit not the kingdom, but the earth as had always been promised all along...

I was shocked to see them admiting the truth about the naos, and simply leaving those who seek truth to connect the dots, to the simple scriptural conclusion—the great crowd or multitude are in heaven. The only way that they are not is if the temple is not in heaven. Here is where I began to use the spirit as my teacher, and the word as my guide...

If, for the purpose of this discussion, you simply allow the assumption that Revelation speaks of the 144k as fleshly Israel, and the great crowd as all nations (including Israel) to stand, meaning just accept that it says and means what it says... then...

The 144k become New Jerusalem the bride. We know that John said, as Jesus was on earth ministering "only to the lost sheep of Israel" that he was also said to the be the one "who has the bride". He had the bride when he walked the earth, and not until he was resurrected was his salvation and inheritance extended to the nations. Therefore it seems simple to leave it simple. The bride is the 144k who returns to earth to escort her to his father's home in heaven, following the ancient Jewish wedding tradition. (I believe they all die, "drinking from the same cup" another Jewish tradition of the bride's accepting the proposal; thus we do not "not precede the [sealed bride] who has fallen asleep**" but we join the wedding processional after the bride.)

Paul spoke and minister to the body, which was a different good news than the good news of the kingdom which was rejected, and gave way to the great sacred secret. Prior to this, you had to become circumcised to become eligible for kingdom inheritance. Now, it was neither Jew nor Greek, simply a new creation—the body whose head was in heaven.

When he returns, it is in a twinkling of an eye that we are transformed from a spiritual ekklesia or congregation or body into a spirit body joining our head in mid-heaven.

After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands, And I said to him, “Sir, you know.” So he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Therefore they are before the throne of God, and serve Him day and night in His temple. And He who sits on the throne will dwell among them. (Revelation 7:9, 14, 15 NKJV)

Now, as for 'naos', it is clearly the place the priests did their work and is inside the temple. No one argues otherwise other than the witnesses. The only instance was Judas entering the naos, but it is reasoned: "Judas in his desperation entered the Holy place, which no one but the priests was allowed to enter".

And, the clincher?

Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls filled with the seven last plagues came to me and talked with me, saying, “Come, I will show you the bride, the Lamb’s wife.” And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me the great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God, But I saw no temple in it, for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple. (Revelation 21:9, 10, 22 NKJV)

The great crowd worship day and night in the temple, but the New Jerusalem contains no temple.

There is time between the scene of the great crowd worshiping in naos, and later when New Jerusalem descends with our Father and his Son as its temple.

And just like that I was free from having been enslaved.

I find it much easier to accept the scriptures as written than to impose doctrines such as "the true church" on top of the Word. It all simply makes perfect sense. Our Father's wife is in Revelation, she gives birth to the Son. He in turn ends up with a bride, the remnant, which restores the honor to the family name of the chosen people of Israel, having been redeemed by the repurchaser.

Israel restored on earth as foretold in the OT is the restoration of the marriage of Our Father, and the Kingdom descends ruled by the remnant. The great crowd I wonder where they end up. Do they descend as citizens of the city? Do they remain in heaven? Does Jacob's ladder provide the ability to succor between the two realms?

I dunno. But I do know that the scriptures mean what they say, and it's much harder to understand if you're listening to man's word over The Word and his spirit of truth.

Hope something in this is helpful for you. It means accepting the Word over interpretation and setting aside our entanglements, but it's so simple if you do! :)

"And I saw seats, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given to them, and these souls who were cut off for the testimony of Yeshua and for the word of God, and because they did not worship The Beast, neither its Image, nor received a mark between their eyes or on their hands, they lived and reigned with The Messiah for 1000 years; And this is the first resurrection.** Blessed and holy is he, whoever has part in the first resurrection, and the second death has no authority over these, but they shall be Priests of God and of The Messiah, and they shall reign with him 1000 years."

Now, here's the goofy me—I wonder, and I haven't sorted out through spirit yet, what if... What if, given the context:

When the thousand years come to an end, Satan will be let out of his prison. He will go out to deceive the nations—called Gog and Magog—in every corner of the earth. He will gather them together for battle—a mighty army, as numberless as sand along the seashore. And I saw them as they went up on the broad plain of the earth and surrounded God’s people and the beloved city. But fire from heaven came down on the attacking armies and consumed them. (Revelation 20:7-9 NLT)

The people on earth "the camp of God's people" are the people who are invited to the wedding feast? Immediately following this scene the heavens and earth fled away, and the dead are judged (the resurrection), prior to it was the announcement, "happy are those called to the wedding supper". Could it be that during the wedding supper the new heaven and new earth come to be? He formed it even to be inhabited, he promised it as an inheritance to the children he created.

But your dead will live;
their bodies will rise.
You who dwell in the dust,
wake up and shout for joy.
Your dew is like the dew of the morning;
the earth will give birth to her dead.

Go, my people, enter your rooms
and shut the doors behind you;
hide yourselves for a little while
until his wrath has passed by.

I think of it as his wrath passing by, then the marriage supper (evening, at following the dawn of that great day) which contains all who rejoice in salvation. Meanwhile the best present ever is being formed—the new heaven and the new earth. The former things have passed away, and all is as He always intended, and the dead rise to a new earth (and supper?).


Arius, there is time or events that take place, clearly, between event of the great crowd worshipping in the naos, and later when New Jerusalem descends, and no temple is found in it for our Father and his Son are themselves temple.

I see no necessity for going back to earth, but noted in the thread above (To Ash from Viewer) the mention of the resurrected appearance of his Son possibly prefiguring the same manner in which the kings and priests of the kingdom will serve.

In my childlike mind, in the conclusion of my post, I wander of into wondering if perhaps like the scripture that says to go into your room to let the wrath pass, perhaps the marriage supper will include all that come to love our Father, and during that celebration the new earth and new heavens will be created while we're all rejoicing in the marriage of the Lamb. I don't specify that the marriage supper is in heaven, and even the verses surrounding that:

"Earth and sky fled from his presence, and there was no place for them." ... "Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband."

You do know that the marriage supper is seven days, right? At least in Jewish wedding tradition, the traditions the Son mimicked during his first presence when he was known as the "bridegroom which has the bride".

Why wouldn't those seven days marriage supper be one as the same as the kind of seven days used to create the heaven and the earth as we know them today? —I ask in childlike innocence.


Final punishment at or after death?

For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

But let me reveal to you a wonderful secret. We will not all die, but we will all be transformed! [But all who should die, will die. Thus all who are transformed are transformed to eternal incorruptible life.]

There is the first resurrection of the martyrs (witnesses, literally), For them the second death holds no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him a thousand years, and then The rest of the dead did not come back to life until the thousand years had ended.

Then I saw the dead, both great and small, standing before God’s throne. And the books were opened, including the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to what they had done, as recorded in the books.

I get so frustrated by the teachings of men.

We don't die twice. There is the fleshly and spiritual deaths—thus the first and second, but in the human sense of the term, there is not dying twice.

The Witnesses teach that ones will be resurrected during the thousand years—the scriptures disagree. They also teach that those who fall to Satan's deception at the end of the thousand years will die—however, quite simply there is only one group exempt from a second death—those of the first resurrection, and then there are the rest of the dead which don't come alive until AFTER the thousand years. Meanwhile those of the first resurrection are in heaven, out of reach of Satan. Lastly those who survive Armageddon and go on the great camping trip of the millenium are not those deceived by Satan—he goes to deceive the nations—and they march across the breadth of the earth (picture a scene where there are ants marching across the globe) to the beloved city, and bam!—that's it. Done.

I have to say I'm ignorant of "final punishment". Never read that in the scriptures. Who taught you that? I imagine the "final punishment" is not living forever. Isn't that the eternal timeout, as it were? (For the dead are conscious of nothing, and meanwhile the living live forever.)

The dead don't come to life unless they are judged worthy to live. The dead rise to stand, and are judged, and are still dead, until judged worthy.

Those who rise in the twinkle of an eye are incorruptible, and exempt.

Ashenden, I believe I feel similarly to what you've expressed.

It's cause and effect. Adam sinned and was sentenced to death. He was also cast out of the Garden of Eden without access to the Tree of Life. Without access to the Tree of Life, we cannot live forever. Through him sin entered into the world, and through sin, death. Thus sin and death spread to all men, for we all sin. Though Jesus did not sin, without access to the Tree of Life, he would have suffered a 'natural' death the same as we do.

God said, "The Man has become like one of us, capable of knowing everything, ranging from good to evil. What if he now should reach out and take fruit from the Tree-of-Life and eat, and live forever? Never—this cannot happen!"

So God expelled them from the Garden of Eden and sent them to work the ground, the same dirt out of which they'd been made. He threw them out of the garden and stationed angel-cherubim and a revolving sword of fire east of it, guarding the path to the Tree-of-Life. — Genesis 3:22-24

To him who overcomes, I will give the right to eat from the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God. — Revelation 2:7

On each side of the river stood the tree of life, bearing twelve crops of fruit, yielding its fruit every month. And the leaves of the tree are for the healing of the nations. — Revelation 22:2

Incidentally when Adam chose "knowledge" over "life" (because he could have ignored what Eve did, and made his own choice yet) he forsook wisdom—the fear of God.

"Wisdom is a tree of life to those who embrace her; happy are those who hold her tightly." — Proverbs 3:18

"“But do people know where to find wisdom?
Where can they find understanding?

It is hidden from the eyes of all humanity.
Even the sharp-eyed birds in the sky cannot discover it.

Destruction and Death say, [speaking of the tree of life in the garden of Eden]
‘We’ve heard only rumors of where wisdom can be found.’

“God alone understands the way to wisdom;
he knows where it can be found,
for he looks throughout the whole earth
and sees everything under the heavens.

He decided how hard the winds should blow
and how much rain should fall.
He made the laws for the rain
and laid out a path for the lightning.

Then he saw wisdom and evaluated it.
He set it in place and examined it thoroughly.

And this is what he says to all humanity:
‘The fear of the Lord is [to eat of the tree of life of] true wisdom;
to forsake [the tree of knowledge of good and] evil is understanding.’” — Job 28

Beautiful isn't it?

I like The Message version of the account at Romans of inheriting the conditions...

The Death-Dealing Sin, the Life-Giving Gift

You know the story of how Adam landed us in the dilemma we're in— first sin, then death, and no one exempt from either sin or death. That sin disturbed relations with God in everything and everyone, but the extent of the disturbance was not clear until God spelled it out in detail to Moses. So death, this huge abyss separating us from God, dominated the landscape from Adam to Moses. Even those who didn't sin precisely as Adam did by disobeying a specific command of God still had to experience this termination of life, this separation from God. But Adam, who got us into this, also points ahead to the One who will get us out of it.

Yet the rescuing gift is not exactly parallel to the death-dealing sin. If one man's sin put crowds of people at the dead-end abyss of separation from God, just think what God's gift poured through one man, Jesus Christ, will do! There's no comparison between that death-dealing sin and this generous, life-giving gift. The verdict on that one sin was the death sentence; the verdict on the many sins that followed was this wonderful life sentence. If death got the upper hand through one man's wrongdoing, can you imagine the breathtaking recovery life makes, sovereign life, in those who grasp with both hands this wildly extravagant life-gift, this grand setting-everything-right, that the one man Jesus Christ provides?

Here it is in a nutshell: Just as one person did it wrong and got us in all this trouble with sin and death, another person did it right and got us out of it. But more than just getting us out of trouble, he got us into life! One man said no to God and put many people in the wrong; one man said yes to God and put many in the right.

All that passing laws against sin did was produce more lawbreakers. But sin didn't, and doesn't, have a chance in competition with the aggressive forgiveness we call grace. When it's sin versus grace, grace wins hands down. All sin can do is threaten us with death, and that's the end of it. Grace, because God is putting everything together again through the Messiah, invites us into life—a life that goes on and on and on, world without end. — Romans 5:12-21
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Post by angelaglass » Thu Sep 22, 2016 3:01 am

How many divisions if we were to rightly divide?

Is there anyone who believes that in the same manner that the scriptures of the "old testament" or covenant were divided (Luke 24:44) those of the "new testament" or covenant are likewise?

The premise comes from 2 Tim 2:15, to rightly divide or "cut straight" the Word of Truth.

I wonder because in catching up on the threads of the last few days I marvel at how we cross what seems to be lines in the scriptures between the Jewish ministry, and the Christian ministry, or systems of things. Confusion seems to arise from trying to reason with what appears in the Matthew-John (and/or Hebrews, and the other letters and Revelation) to that in Paul's letters.

I'm alone here?

Someone mentioned once that the topics I bring up aren't usually of interest to them—I didn't take it personally, but in a like manner feel like that might be why to some extent I feel somewhat distant from general topics myself. I've ventured to try to illustrate the concept at times to share—for instance, a "family tree" which shows that to be a seed of Abraham does not make one an Israelite. Even more confusing is the teaching that the 144,000 are "spiritual Israel" but not a literal number. How in the world do we rationalize that? Oh, is it simply that? Is it the opposition to: "When we tell you these things, we do not use words that come from human wisdom. Instead, we speak words given to us by the Spirit, using the Spirit's words to explain spiritual truths."

I realized today that there is an ekklesia, those called out, and an ekkleió, those shut out—that's as in the "ekkleisai" of Galatians 4:17.

I like the Message's rendering of the verse:

"Those heretical teachers go to great lengths to flatter you, but their motives are rotten. They want to shut you out of the free world of God's grace so that you will always depend on them for approval and direction, making them feel important."

It is by that method that I believed so many things that the scriptures so not to be true, but feel free and no longer enslaved once I took to the Word as Truth.

Things seem so simple and clear now—but I also feel so alone in believing that the word, as written, is truth—if we take care to "discern the body".

Anyone know what I'm talking about here? Anyone know of anyone who does?


Dude, Hosea prophesied so so so long ago that one day our Father would remove the names of the Baalim from the lips of his idolatrous wife.

Moses sprinkled the blood when he delivered the law.

Paul speaks of heavenly Jerusalem as the mother another letter.

Mount Zion abounds through out the scriptures, the firstborn as well. You're just making notation of the patterns of imagery and titles used in the writings for the Hebrews (literally) which includes the book of Revelation.

It is of note that the book of Hebrews speaks to members of the 144,000 specifically, and thus we should expect to see imagery from Hebrews in Revelation—but does that mean that one should come before the other? Was it the chicken, the egg, or the sheep or shepherd? :)

Yes, I believe that the 144k are literally 12k from each of the 12 tribes listed in Revelation. I haven't met Luke, so I'm not qualified. If Luke was a Christian, then he's in the body of Christ (great crowd of all nations, including Israel's).

I'm deep in study of the effect of Jewish magick and Gnosticism on Christianity. I recognize the symbolic use of numbers both in the culture as well as in scriptures. While I believe that the number is literal, I understand the symbolic significance of the number.

"Is the number 666 a literal man?"

I'm not certain I understand what you mean—a number is not a man, but it used to identify a man who is figuratively described as a beast, described as a "Beast that ascended from the ground, and it had two horns and was like The Lamb and was speaking like The Dragon."

How do you interpret the conflict between the instructions of Jesus below?

Matthew 10:5-7: “Don’t go to the Gentiles or the Samaritans, but only to the people of Israel—God’s lost sheep. Go and announce to them that the Kingdom of Heaven is near."


Matthew 28:18-20 “I have been given all authority in heaven and on earth. Therefore, go and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. Teach these new disciples to obey all the commands I have given you."


Luke 9:2,3 Then he sent them out to tell everyone about the Kingdom of God and to heal the sick. 3“Take nothing for your journey,” he instructed them. “Don’t take a walking stick, a traveler’s bag, food, money, or even a change of clothes.


Luke 22:36: “But now,” he said, “take your money and a traveler’s bag. And if you don’t have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one!"

I'm searching and seeking as if for hid treasure.

In doing so I feel as though I've foraged through the sands of the sea, stumbled over dust and shall be as the stars.


Hi there. Just wanted to note a gnat: William H. Conley was the first president or "CEO" of the Watchtower. He was a financier of religious institutions.

I believe that in the last days many will pay attention to the distracting teachings of demons—1914, and the invisible parousia, which was contrived to explain in 1878 why they didn't see him come in 1874, are all examples of such teachings. I wish I could ask my grandpa how he swallowed that gnat when in 1930 or so they suddenly went from believing he came invisibly in 1874, as "any consecrated child of God" would believe, to him having come invisibly in 1914 instead.

But hey!—when the emperor wears not pants, who can say?

Are you a full preterist?

There are so many patterns in the bible.

So many stories that repeat themselves, foreshadowing events to come on a grander scale. Repeated numbers, Joseph of the 12, and the 70 members of the family... Judges 9, Abimelech—would you rather one ruler or seventy? Then the prophecy of the trees, the bramble or buckthrorn, which was foreshadowed in the 'funeral' for Jacob, on the buckthorn threshing floor, which points us forward to the one, "He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire. His winnowing fork is in his hand, and he will clear his threshing floor, gathering his wheat into the barn and burning up the chaff with unquenchable fire.”

Molek, Melech, Melek, [King, King, King] and the buckthorn bramble thornbush of the threshing floor...

The land was destroyed by a flood, it will soon be destroyed by fire.

Both figuratively, and literally...

First of all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires. They will say, “Where is this ‘coming’ he promised? Ever since our fathers died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation.” But they deliberately forget that long ago by God’s word the heavens existed and the earth was formed out of water and by water. By these waters also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed. By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.

But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything in it will be laid bare.

It seems that the patterns are written a fore-time for our instruction. Cain and Abel ["Abba, my El", I was murdered for offering my sacrifice... irony, eh?; what do Cain, Ishmael and Pharisees all have in common? Trying to do it their way, rather than relying on the Spirit guidance, as does "Babylon the Great".] representing the 'blood' substitute sacrifice, Cain ignoring it and instead bringing something from the land which God had just cursed. In anger and jealousy against his brother, he strikes and takes blood. Ah, the irony. Do I look back at the jealousy of Satan, or foreword, er, forward, to Abraham and Isaac, or our Father and his Son?

“The fire and wood are here,” Isaac said, “but where is the lamb for the burnt offering?”

Abraham answered, “God himself will provide the lamb for the burnt offering, my son.”

In the first century, those verses were fulfilled, but not to completion, simply to foreshadowing it's ultimate fulfillment of the great day.

You might want to see how you'd figure the old testament prophets in—Zechariah, for example. I've decided to put my effort into a linear timeline kind of write up. The question has long since been—how long? There are so many things to come outside of Revelation—have you ever thought from the perspective of the Jews? They don't acknowledge Revelation for obvious reasons—but they await fulfillment of prophecies too, you know. And they all came from the same scriptures. [If you're interested, I'd love to discuss. But I haven't found a person yet who believes as I do! :) ]


Literally speaking...

I was thinking of designing an administration.

So I was thinking a council of a dozen people, elected to govern their community. I was thinking that these administrative groups would each serve each for a year. How they want to divide up the task is up to them—maybe they each take a month of the year, or maybe they work as a council all together, or maybe they work just 2.5 days a month for the year—that'd be up to them.

The service is for a year, and then the new administration. I think about how many grumpy and disgruntled public servants there are—none of that!

The project lasts for 1,000 years.

How many people do I need?

Ok, now, I have 12 districts, how many would that be?

Just musing over the coming end of the 13th Bak'tun (baktun being 144,000 days) and Nut and Ra and the pregnant earth which gave us 5 more days, instead of the 360 (from which the Imperial measure is derived and degrees) myth and religion once believes we had. That being of course when the world was thinner and the moon was closer, proportionally speaking.

That and chickens and aliens in unidentified flying objects, and fire balls.

What a strange day. I have 7 more days until I'm a year older. Then 21 one days later the world comes to an end, no?

I'd say that's nuts, but I might offend the goddess.


Lived in Bars, Cat Power — Feels like my life, my finding the stairway.

I'm Going To Go Back There Someday, Gonzo the Muppet — There isn't a word yet, for old friends (like my daddy who died when I was three, he was my best friend, my momma says) who've just met.

Eh Hee, Dave Matthews — "praise God, who has many names, but the devil has many more"

As Is, Ani DiFranco — My friend "in the truth" gave me this song 15 years ago. Funny to see where we both ended up all these years later.

If you guys are looking for new music, the entire new album (as well as their others) by Mumford & Sons, Babel is written with scriptural meaning. Also very much enjoy the new album that was just released this week called "A Boy & His Kite".

Meanwhile for oldies:

She Belongs to Me, Bob Dylan — I could explain every line and how it's tied to scriptures. I have a whole custom playlist of Dylan, and could tell you stories to it, all based on my life cross with his scripturally based lyrics.

If You Wanna Get to Heaven, You Gotta Raise a Little Hell, The Ozark Mountain Daredevils for better quality sound, but no video. — This one is for a period of time in my life where I was helping out those less fortunate, and loved one child in particular that turned my life upside down in no small manner!

In My Life, The Beatles — no explanation needed.

Hallelujah, Jeff Buckley — "I heard there was a secret chord that David played and it pleased the Lord". Such haunting music. I've always had a crush on King David too.

Somewhere Over the Rainbow, Israel — Dreams really do come true. I dream of my daddy—somewhere, over the rainbow, a symbol of one of God's promises.

Israel of God

I don't believe the "Israel of God" is the identity of anything other than Israel.

Peace and mercy to all who follow this rule, even to the Israel of God. — Galatians 6:16

What rule?

Neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything; what counts is a new creation.

Who was at fault for following the rule?

Those who want to make a good impression outwardly are trying to compel you to be circumcised. The only reason they do this is to avoid being persecuted for the cross of Christ.

The only mention of "the Israel of God" in scripture is at Galatians 16. Here Paul is compelling the congregation, comprised of both Jewish and Gentile Christians to abide by the principle that circumcision is symbol from the old covenant, and they are a new creation of the new covenant. He offers peace and mercy to all who follow this rule, even to the Israel of God. The question then is who is this Israel of God to whom even them he extends his offer of peace and mercy? They are the ones discussed who persisted in persuading the Gentile Christians to become circumcised, for express purpose of appearing righteous in winning converts to Judaism and escaping persecution for keeping company with the persecuted Christians—feigning they're all Jewish, by the symbol of circumcision, instead.

That was the Israel of God in question, those who became Israel, by birth or circumcision, under the old covenant.

And if Israel of God is the old covenant, whose symbol was done away with, replaced by a new covenant and new creation, it is illogical to seek to replace the identity of what no longer is no longer valid covenant.

Response to Early Christian Beliefs: Israel of God

The Discussion of the Israel of God below began with a reference to Haggai 2:7. I make note that the nations will come into the temple or house of God.

Likewise Micah 4:1,2 identifies the nations coming into his house, established upon the mountain. (Adonai, or YHWH?)

Matt 3:9 warns against a sense of entitlement being the children of Abraham. Christians then adapt this verse to adopt the same sense of entitlement that was held by the Pharisees.

Matt 21:43 address that the house of Judah was always promised the Kingdom rule, as they received the promise of the scepter in Jacob's blessing. The house of Israel received the birthright blessing, to become many nations. Here Christ warns that the kingdom would be taken from them and given to (a race, people, nation; the nations, heathen world, Gentiles) a nation bearing the fruits of it.

Crucial to understanding the scriptures is to understand the distinction maintained in the culture at that time. Israel, the northern kingdom scattered into diaspora in ~800BC. In Hebrew a "nation" or "people" is the word "goy", a derogatory term in use today. In Greek it is translated "ethnos" and is the word often translated "Gentile" or "people of the nations". Jews of the kingdom of Judah considered Israel to be "goy" or "gentile", and a nation or kingdom apart from themselves. The brothers Jacob and Esau are even spoke of as being as two nations in the scriptures, Genesis 25:23.

The words spoken at Matt 21:43 at that time was a warning to the Jews, in Judah, that the kingdom would be taken from them and given to their heathen brothers, Israel, a nations which would bear its fruits and would become many nations. These nations were literal fleshly descendants of Israel and I believe comprise the majority of Christians who have come into the kingdom.

Romans 2:28,29 is again a warning to those who felt a sense of entitlement by birth and explains that the kingdom is not inherited by right but by promise, conditional upon heart condition. The old covenant was a fleshly covenant with an earthly hope. The new covenant is a spiritual covenant with a heavenly hope by blessing. To become a member of the old covenant required circumcision of flesh to symbolize membership. To become a member of the new covenant requires circumcision of heart to symbolize membership. One is by choosing (Israel) and adoption (nations), the other is by adoption (Israel) and choosing (nations).

In line with the discussion of Romans 2, Romans 9:6,7 explains that not all who are of the nation of Israel are the Israel of God, and reiterates that just because they descended from Abraham doesn't mean they are the seed of the promise. We are wise to recall, as they would have known then, that Abraham not only had Ishmael (who became the father of the Arabs, Muslims of Islamic faith) and Isaac, but also several more sons (Genesis 25:1).

Gal 3:28 points out the absurdity of clamoring to be "spiritual Jews" as there are neither Jew nor Greek distinctions as all are one in the body of Christ, a new creation—a new identity—the great sacred secret of the scriptures. Meanwhile "Greek" here is Hellēn, which is anyone, including Jews, who were hellenized adopting the Greek culture and language.

Galatians 6:15,16 then brings us to the conclusion that all that heed the counsel to put aside the focus of Israel, the circumcision of flesh of the old covenant, to receive the blessing of peace and mercy from Paul, even Israel of God—those of the old covenant who caused the dispute in discussion, whether or not Christians should become circumcised thus becoming Jews. Jewish Christians wouldn't have been a new creation, but precisely what it is that Christians attempt to do today confusing their own identity with the new covenant with that of the old, in effect attempting to be Christian Jews as the inverse of what was once promoted by Jewish Christians. Poor Israel isn't even considered—Jews comprising 2 of the 12 tribes overall.

"Their covenant was broken so that the covenant of the beloved Jesus could be sealed upon our heart, in the hope that comes from believing in him.....Let us see if this people[ the Christians] are the heirs, or if it is the former [the Jews]. Let us to if the covenant belongs to us or to them." Barnabas (c. 70-130)

Barnabas comment makes it obvious that the confusion of whose promise was it was certainly the basis of Paul's writing. In effect the discussion must have been Jews claiming "you're becoming one of us" while Christians struggled to maintain their own identity, as the "new creation" without distinction regarding Judaism (the worship of the two tribe kingdom, as opposed to scattered apostate Israel) nor Hellenization.

"When He said, 'Rejoice, you barren one who bears not', He referred to us [Gentiles]. For our church was barren before children were given to her... And when He said, 'For she that is desolate has many more children than she that has a husband,' He meant that our people [Israel] seemed to be outcast from God, but now, through believing, have become more numerous than those who are considered to possess God." Second Clement (c. 150)

One day, when New Jerusalem descends, the Israel of God will be joined with the Congregation of Christ. It is true that it is through the body of Christ of the heavenly New Jerusalem, the new covenant, that the desolate woman bears children, and outnumbers that of the Israel of God; we only know today of Jews who keep true to the covenant given to God's chosen people, Israel. On the other hand, Christ does the choosing for his spiritual congregation, and his father gives him all those that it is he chooses, and thus it is that we are called.

In keeping with context of the words of Christ, we must acknowledge that Judah and Israel were two separate nations; Let us not ignore that Jerusalem was in Judah, and for Israel to inhabit Jerusalem would be for the kingdom to be given to another nation.

Jerusalem was always held by Judah, or foreigners, but never Israel. The Jews held fast to the belief that one day the Messiah would restore the kingdom on earth. The new covenant was established giving a heavenly hope. In that new covenant there are 144,000 selected out of the twelve tribes of Israel, and a great multitude which no man is able to number out of all nations. Jews have never sought this kingdom of the heavens preferring to focus on the restoration of their earthly kingdom instead, so it is that what Israel sought so earnestly it did not obtain, but the elect did. (Romans 11:10)

First century Jewish historian Josephus (37 – c. 100), hired by the Roman Empire to record the history of the Jews, makes note regarding the Babylonian exile of Judah, "the entire body of the people of Israel remained in that country; wherefore [as a result of which] there are but two tribes in Asia and Europe subject to the Romans, while the ten tribes are beyond Euphrates till now, and are an immense multitude, and not to be estimated by numbers."

Thus, Josephus explains that Judah taken captive to Babylon largely remained in Babylon despite being free to return to Jerusalem, and therefore it was those who returned from the two-tribe kingdom who were the two-tribes to become subject to Romans, while the ten tribes remained free, having been previously scattered prior to Judah's Babylonia captivity, and had become an immense multitude beyond the Euphrates.

Justin Martyr was born in Shechem of the once northern kingdom of Israel, (Nablus, Flavia Neapolis) in the land of Samaria, and considered himself a gentile. With this in mind, we consider Justin Martyr's argument where we note the scope of people based on geography.

- Jews: People of the kingdom of Judah
- Samaritans: People of the land left vacant by Israel, as witnessed by the scriptures in 2 Kings 17. May or may not be natural descendants of Israel.
- Gentiles: People outside of the land of Judah and Israel, which includes Israelites who were displaced as witnessed by 2 Kings 17, and Josephus.

As evidenced by Barnabas and Second Clement before him the context is bickering over who the new covenant belongs to, though known to be Christian dispute seemed to be in "it belonged to me [Jew], before you [Christian]". Most telling is that the argument is between Christian and Jew, though the prize they fought to win wasn't that of Jewish identity, but that of his brother, the prophetic prodigal son Israel. In effect, they fought as children over the old toy, ignorant that they were given a new one to share. While Justin acknowledges the new nature of the new covenant, he yet carries forward the concept that it is Gentiles being grafted into Israel thus constituting "true spiritual Israel". His premise correct, but the conclusion is inaccurate. Israel is not in heaven, it is New Jerusalem. There are those chosen by God, Jerusalem below, and those chosen by Christ, New Jerusalem above. Jerusalem, whether new or old, on earth or in heaven, is simply a city of a kingdom.


"There will be no other God, O Trypho, nor was there from eternity any other existing" (I thus addressed him), "but He who made and disposed all this universe. Nor do we think that there is one God for us, another for you, but that He alone is God who led your fathers out from Egypt with a strong hand and a high arm. Nor have we trusted in any other (for there is no other), but in Him in whom you also have trusted, the God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob. But we do not trust through Moses or through the law; for then we would do the same as yourselves. But now--(for I have read that there shall be a final law, and a covenant, the chiefest of all, which it is now incumbent on all men to observe, as many as are seeking after the inheritance of God. For the law promulgated on Horeb is now old, and belongs to yourselves alone; but this is for all universally. Now, law placed against law has abrogated that which is before it, and a covenant which comes after in like manner has put an end to the previous one; and an eternal and final law--namely, Christ--has been given to us, and the covenant is trustworthy, after which there shall be no law, no commandment, no ordinance. Have you not read this which Isaiah says: 'Hearken unto Me, hearken unto Me, my people; and, ye kings, give ear unto Me: for a law shall go forth from Me, and My judgment shah be for a light to the nations. My righteousness approaches swiftly, and My salvation shall go forth, and nations shall trust in Mine arm?' And by Jeremiah, concerning this same new covenant, He thus speaks: 'Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah; not according to the covenant which I made with their fathers, in the day that I took them by the hand, to bring them out of the land of Egypt'). If, therefore, God proclaimed a new covenant which was to be instituted, and this for a light of the nations, we see and are persuaded that men approach God, leaving their idols and other unrighteousness, through the name of Him who was crucified, Jesus Christ, and abide by their confession even unto death, and maintain piety. Moreover, by the works and by the attendant miracles, it is possible for all to understand that He is the new law, and the new covenant, and the expectation of those who out of every people wait for the good things of God. For the true spiritual Israel, and descendants of Judah, Jacob, Isaac, and Abraham (who in uncircumcision was approved of and blessed by God on account of his faith, and called the father of many nations), are we who have been led to God through this crucified Christ, as shall be demonstrated while we proceed.

Reference: Bercot, David W. A Dictionary of Early Christian Beliefs: A Reference Guide to More than 700 Topics Discussed by the Early Church Fathers. Peabody, MA: Hendrickson, 1998. Print. pg. 362-364, Israel of God.

Not all Israel are Israel

Author: Angela Glass
Not all who are Israel are truly Israel, same as not all that are Jew are truly Jewish.

He meant Israel distinct from Judah.

In the barren woman prophecy, Judah is the one with a husband while Israel was the one given divorce papers.

Thus Israel (the Jerusalem above, Sarah the free woman) has more children than the Jews as Israel collects faithful as Christians.

Screenshot 2014-08-31 09.56.40

Free Will and Freedom

Author: Angela Glass

Christians, then, believe that an evil power has made himself for the present the Prince of this World. And, of course, that raises problems. Is this state of affairs in accordance with God's will or not? If it is, He is a strange God, you will say: and if it is not, how can anything happen contrary to the will of a being with absolute power?

But anyone who has been in authority knows how a thing can be in accordance with your will in one way and not in another. It may be quite sensible for a mother to say to the children, "I'm not going to go and make you tidy the schoolroom every night. You've got to learn to keep it tidy on your own." Then she goes up one night and finds the Teddy bear and the ink and the French Grammar all lying in the grate. That is against her will. She would prefer the children to be tidy. But on the other hand, it is her will which has left the children free to be untidy. The same thing arises in any regiment, or trade union, or school. You make a thing voluntary and then half the people do not do it. That is not what you willed, but your will has made it possible.

[For free will to exist was the story of Garden of Eden: In the middle of the garden were the tree of life and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. God commanded the man, “You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; 17but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die.” … Then the serpent spins it—“Did God really say, ‘You must not eat from any tree in the garden’?” Focusing on what she couldn’t have, while God focused on all she does have—innocence. 4“You will not certainly die,” the serpent said to the woman. 5“For God knows that when you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”]

It is probably the same in the universe. God created things which had free will. That means creatures which can go either wrong or right. Some people think they can imagine a creature which was free but had no possibility of going wrong; I cannot. If a thing is free to be good it is also free to be bad. And free will is what has made evil possible. Why, then, did God give them free will? Because free will though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. A world of automata—of creatures that worked like machines—would hardly be worth creating. The happiness which God designs for His higher creatures is the happiness of being freely, voluntarily united to Him and to each other in an ecstasy of love and delight compared with which the most rapturous love between a man and a woman on this earth is mere milk and water. And for that they must be free.

Of course God knew what would happen if they used their freedom the wrong way: apparently He thought it worth the risk. Perhaps we feel inclined to disagree with Him. But there is a difficulty about disagreeing with God. He is the source from which all your reasoning power comes: you could not be right and He wrong any more than a stream can rise higher than its own source. When you are arguing against Him you are arguing against the very power that makes you able to argue at all: it is like cutting off the branch you are sitting on. If God thinks this state of war in the universe a price worth paying for free will—that is, for making a live world in which creatures can do real good or harm and something of real importance can happen, instead of a toy world which only moves when He pulls the strings—then we may take it it is worth paying.

When we have understood about free will, we shall see how silly it is to ask, as somebody once asked me: "Why did God make a creature of such rotten stuff that it went wrong?" The better stuff a creature is made of—the cleverer and stronger and freer it is—then the better it will be if it goes right, but also the worse it will be if it goes wrong. A cow cannot be very good or very bad; a dog can be both better and worse; a child better and worse still; an ordinary man, still more so; a man of genius, still more so; a superhuman spirit best—or worst—of all.

How did the Dark Power go wrong? Here, no doubt, we ask a question to which human beings cannot give an answer with any certainty. A reasonable (and traditional) guess, based on our own experiences of going wrong, can, however, be offered. The moment you have a self at all, there is a possibility of putting Yourself first—wanting to be the centre—wanting to be God, in fact. That was the sin of Satan: and that was the sin he taught the human race. Some people think the fall of man had something to do with sex, but that is a mistake. (The story in the Book of Genesis rather suggests that some corruption in our sexual nature followed the fall and was its result, not its cause.)

What Satan put into the heads of our remote ancestors was the idea that they could "be like gods”—could set up on their own as if they had created themselves—be their own masters—invent some sort of happiness for themselves outside God, apart from God. And out of that hopeless attempt has come nearly all that we call human history—money, poverty, ambition, war, prostitution, classes, empires, slavery—the long terrible story of man trying to find something other than God which will make him happy.

The reason why it can never succeed is this. God made us: invented us as a man invents an engine. A car is made to run on gasoline, and it would not run properly on anything else. Now God designed the human machine to run on Himself. He Himself is the fuel our spirits were designed to burn, or the food our spirits were designed to feed on. There is no other. That is why it is just no good asking God to make us happy in our own way without bothering about religion. God cannot give us a happiness and peace apart from Himself, because it is not there. There is no such thing.

That is the key to history. Terrific energy is expended—civilizations are built up—excellent institutions devised; but each time something goes wrong. Some fatal flaw always brings the selfish and cruel people to the top and it all slides back into misery and ruin. In fact, the machine conks. It seems to start up all right and runs a Jew yards, and then it breaks down. They are trying to run it on the wrong juice. That is what Satan has done to us humans.

And what did God do? First of all He left us conscience, the sense of right and wrong: and all through history there have been people trying (some of them very hard) to obey it. None of them ever quite succeeded. Secondly, He sent the human race what I call good dreams: I mean those queer stories scattered all through the heathen religions about a god who dies and comes to life again and, by his death, has somehow given new life to men. Thirdly, He selected one particular people and spent several centuries hammering into their heads the sort of God He was —that there was only one of Him and that He cared about right conduct. Those people were the Jews, and the Old Testament gives an account of the hammering process.


Christians are Christ's body, the organism through which He works. Every addition to that body enables Him to do more. If you want to help those outside you must add your own little cell to the body of Christ who alone can help them. Cutting off a man's fingers would be an odd way of getting him to do more work.

Another possible objection is this. Why is God landing in this enemy-occupied world in disguise and starting a sort of secret society to undermine the devil? Why is He not landing in force, invading it? Is it dial He is not strong enough? Well, Christians think He is going to land in force; we do not know when. But we can guess why He is delaying. He wants to give us the chance of joining His side freely. I do not suppose you and I would have thought much of a Frenchman who waited till the Allies were marching into Germany and then announced he was on our side. God will invade. But I wonder whether people who ask God to interfere openly and directly in our world quite realise what it will be like when He does. When that happens, it is the end of the world.

When the author walks on to the stage the play is over. God is going to invade, all right: but what is the good of saying you are on His side then, when you see the whole natural universe melting away like a dream and something else—something it never entered your head to conceive—comes crashing in; something so beautiful to some of us and so terrible to others that none of us will have any choice left? For this time it will be God without disguise; something so overwhelming that it will strike either irresistible love or irresistible horror into every creature.

It will be too late then to choose your side. There is no use saying you choose to lie down when it has become impossible to stand up. That will not be the time for choosing: it will be the time when we discover which side we really have chosen, whether we realised it before or not. Now, today, this moment, is our chance to choose the right side. God is holding back to give us that chance. It will not last for ever. We must take it or leave it.


Another difficulty we get if we believe God to be in time is this. Everyone who believes in God at all believes that He knows what you and I are going to do tomorrow. But if He knows I am going to do so-and-so, how can I be free to do otherwise? Well, here once again, the difficulty comes from thinking that God is progressing along the Time-line like us: the only difference being that He can see ahead and we cannot.

Well, if that were true, if God foresaw our acts, it would be very hard to understand how we could be free not to do them. But suppose God is outside and above the Time-line. In that case, what we call "tomorrow" is visible to Him in just the same way as what we call "today." All the days are "Now" for Him. He does not remember you doing things yesterday; He simply sees you doing them, because, though you have lost yesterday. He has not.

He does not "foresee" you doing things tomorrow; He simply sees you doing them: because, though tomorrow is not yet there for you, it is for Him. You never supposed that your actions at this moment were any less free because God knows what you are doing. Well, He knows your tomorrow's actions in just the same way—because He is already in tomorrow and can simply watch you. In a sense, He does not know your action till you have done it: but then the moment at which you have done it is already "Now" for Him.

This idea has helped me a good deal. If it does not help you, leave it alone. It is a "Christian idea" in the sense that great and wise Christians have held it and there is nothing in it contrary to Christianity. But it is not in the Bible or any of the creeds. You can be a perfectly good Christian without accepting it, or indeed without thinking of the matter at all


He gave them free will: He gave them free will because a world of mere automata could never love and therefore never know infinite happiness.


That is why He warned people to "count the cost" before becoming Christians. "Make no mistake," He says, "if you let me, I will make you perfect. The moment you put yourself in My hands, that is what you are in for. Nothing less, or other, than that. You have free will, and if you choose, you can push Me away.

But if you do not push Me away, understand that I am going to see this job through. Whatever suffering it may cost you in your earthly life, whatever inconceivable purification it may cost you after death, whatever it costs Me, I will never rest, nor let you rest, until you are literally perfect—until my Father can say without reservation that He is well pleased with you, as He said He was well pleased with me. This I can do and will do. But I will not do anything less.”


It is something they can freely give Him or freely refuse to Him. Will they, or will they not, turn to Him and thus fulfil the only purpose for which they were created? Their free will is trembling inside them like the needle of a compass. But this is a needle that can choose. It can point to its true North; but it need not. Will the needle swing round, and settle, and point to God?

He can help it to do so. He cannot force it. He cannot, so to speak, put out His own hand and pull it into the right position, for then it would not be free will any more. Will it point North? That is the question on which all hangs. Will Miss Bates and Dick offer their natures to God? The question whether the natures they offer or withhold are, at that moment, nice or nasty ones, is of secondary importance. God can see to that part of the problem.


Author: Angela Glass
Religious, but with no personal relationship of God (explains how Jesus found the Jews, and how he’ll find Christians?)

Spiritual, but not religious

Glass Revelation

Author: Angela Glass
You redeemed people
for God by Your blood
from every tribe and language
and people and nation.
You made them a kingdom
and priests to our God,
and they will reign on the earth. —Rev 5

The Great Crowd are the people of every tribe and language and nation made to be a kingdom and priests who reign on the earth during the millennial reign. These people are those who are alive at the event of the Great Tribulation and face the beast foretold in Revelation. They are those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of God’s word, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and who had not accepted the mark on their foreheads or their hands.

Satan cast out of heaven during last three years...

Author: Angela Glass
This conclusively shows that, though the Vision of ch. xii. is anticipative, the actual
casting out cannot take place till the middle of the last of the seventy weeks (Dan. ix. 27).
The Beast will be reigning on the earth during the first half of this week (Rev. vi. — xi.); but,
in his human and mortal form; and acting "peaceably" (Dan. xi. 21). But now, in the middle
of the week, the crisis or "Third Woe" comes (xii. 12). Satan is cast out. The Beast, having
received his "deadly wound," reappears in his superhuman form, and "makes war with the
saints" (xiii. 7). This last half of the week is "the great and terrible day of the Lord." But this
brings us to the next, the Fourth Vision "on Earth" (xii. 13 — xiii. 18).

For my dear friend Jon Kean...

Author: Angela Glass
Why do the nations rage
and the peoples plot in vain?
The kings of the earth set themselves,
and the rulers take counsel together,
against Yehowah and against his Anointed, saying,
“Let us burst their bonds apart
and cast away their cords from us.”

God tells us that he creates man (‘Adam’ means literally ‘man’) in a garden, and then makes for him woman as a companion. He gives man the commission: Become fruitful, fill the earth and subdue it. Man followed the woman instead of God—distractions—when enticed to eat of the fruit he was explicitly told not to—it’s beautiful literature, note how there’s a subtle spin on what God said as the serpent positions it to Eve as opposed to how God actually presented it to Adam—and thus he was cursed and sent out of the garden.

God cursed the serpent:

I will put hostility between you and the woman,
and between your seed and her seed.
He will strike your head,
and you will strike his heel.

What God told the serpent underlies the stories passed through out the culture of humanity. ("We know that we are children of God, and that the whole world is under the control of the evil one.”) Note: serpent, dragon, worm, parasite, and Beelzebub are just a few of the synonyms for "Satan the devil, the deceiver, the liar, and the father of the lie” (common etymology origin).

Back to the story that becomes the basis of the myths of humanity.

Most of humanity’s story lines are branches off of the serpent’s perspective, while there is but one Truth.

Her seed—He—would bruise the serpent on the head. And there would be enmity.

So now humanity is looking for a man as the savior born of a virgin. (Mother/virgin relationship is also an aspect carried through cultures.)

Enter Nimrod, the first man to make war and conquest his business. Before Nimrod war was unknown, it was man versus beast. Nimrod was known as a mighty warrior who founded the empire of Babylon, building the tower of Babel. He is identified with various other names, including Ninus, who with Semiramis depict the original false religion. They created the rule of man over man, and perpetuated the authority by basically the concept of reincarnation built on top of the born of a virgin mother child becomes savior concept, now progressed to child becomes god. Basically the scriptures outline the original people of humanity as we know them and how again and again that line of faithful humanity is whittled away until there only ever seems to be but just a remnant left.

Your ‘anunnaki’ are mentioned in scripture, and it addresses how the Israelites both of Judea and Samaria fell to apostasy by worshipping them instead of being faithful to God. They are pictured as having cheated on him (as his wife) by having screwed another man (worshipping these idols/false gods). We can talk about them one by one if you want. Basically though, know that Nimrod means literally “a mighty hunter” and was defined as being so “against” or “before” God.

Satan went against God wanting to be God. Then came the idea of there being more than one god, or “many gods”. Then came the politics of man as god reincarnated. We went from worship God to slaves of politics with politics as worship Babylon, the dynasty of Nimrod’s Babel.

Now, jump forward and what’s super cool is that while that’s all ancient history and literally the Genesis of scripture, the book of Revelation ties together the end of the story for us, which is at our doorstep. It takes these same keys you’re interested in and yanks them out of ancient history and puts them in our future. Literally God depicts Babylon being a woman who is carried from her home in basket to a land where she is locked away. Imagine her as a princess who is banished from her land locked into a castle in Rome who manages to turn it into the Vatican, otherwise known as “Christendom”, which reasonably works out as “the Kingdom of Christ” on earth—a lie. Revelation calls her, “Mystery: Babylon The Great, The Mother Of Whores And Abominations Of The Earth.” She is depicted as having ridden the beast as being religion screwing with politics—and is drunk on blood, again literally.

People are working their way backwards through the gods, but will they realize in time that it all goes back to the garden and a “He said, hissssss said”?

Currently you’re in the time period of the gods that the Canaanites worshipped later in scripture, keep climbing back in history and seek God before it’s too late.

If you believe in aliens, it must be important then to know the ultimate truth.

Personally I find that the scriptures have been maintained so impeccably despite such persecution and the only relative recent invention of technology to easily print and publish and preserve all the whilst it forces working to keep it from the hands of the people. Before Christians being burned at the stake for having a bible, there were Pharisees keeping the Torah from the average Jew. I read it once, all the way through cover to cover, when I moved back to San Francisco recently. It’s fascinating to read it as a story all the way through. It’s interesting to read once you have ‘worldly knowledge’, since you’ll recognize names such as Tammuz and may connect that the Bohemian Grove owl is Merdoch of the scriptures.

If you’re interested in the conspiracies of the world, there’s no better source to read about them from than the scriptures. It’s all there. It’s just that most people only know the modern names of things and have no idea it’s just the same story told again and again distracting future generations from the origin—in the end, every man and his brother can tell who the virgin is that he worships for having given birth to his savior, but while each culture has that pattern they each have a different set of names. Whose was the real one?

The Jews specifically deny that Mary the virgin who gave birth to the man called “Jesus” was the prophesied Messiah. Christian’s take for granted that Isaiah 53 is about the Christ, and often fail to notice that this is a [Hebrew scriptures] prophecy, a description so spot on you forget it was foretold. You don’t have to be a believer to read it and know that it’s talking about “Jesus Christ”.

But then again, who would have thought you could do the math from the date of God’s prophecy beginning fulfillment to the day that Israel became a sovereign nation once again—out of seemingly no where—once again in history?

That’s calculated based on the Babylonian captivity prophecy, counting forward to Christ, and to May 14, 1948 and the Six Day War of 1967. I find that fascinating. Why squabble over whether or not he can protect his inspired scriptures, if he can set forth prophecy that comes true like that? The final events left to be fulfilled play like a 7 year + countdown, and given what’s going on currently politically in the middle east all the players are in place. You just have to know what Russia used to be called, and all the rest of those details that many just don’t bother with. It’s literally coming true, and just like it was prophesied, no one is noticing!

There’s no reason to worry for world nuclear genocide, the scriptures prophecy, by the Word of God (his Son and his words as documented in the ‘word of God’) that when least expected (basically at World War Three based in the middle east as is brewing right now) will show up at Armageddon. Armageddon is a battle at a place of the same name, which is literally a valley in the middle east where they queue up to fight right now. Russia is in scripture… hurry up!!!!
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